Secretary Ben Carson joined me this morning:

Audio:

06-15hhs-carson

Transcript:

HH: I’m joined by Secretary Ben Carson. He helms the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Good morning, Secretary Carson, welcome back.

BC: Good morning. Good to be with you.

HH: Dr. Carson, you and I are not going to serve on the jury for the policemen in Minneapolis, so we can have an opinion. In your opinion, was George Floyd murdered?

BC: Yes.

HH: What leads you to that opinion?

BC: Well, we don’t have to guess about his case. We saw the murder taking place in front of our eyes. It was captured on video. And you have a man who has already been subdued. Isn’t he in cuffs, is under control? And then you’re performing a maneuver that can take his life blatantly, knowing that people are watching and not caring.

HH: And so Al Sharpton asked in the eulogy of George Floyd how does such a person get into the police force of America who can keep his knee on the neck of someone for 8 minutes and 46 seconds? I ask you that question. How does that happen?

BC: Because this is a man who already had multiple infractions and has been allowed to remain on the police force. And I think that you know, there are generally warnings when you have people who are, you know, pathological like he is. And you know, we have to have some kind of responsibility. And I think you know, when we’re calling for reformation of police forces, that’s the kind of thing that really needs to be looked at. And the possibility of people moving from one jurisdiction to another after they’re found to have violated, you know, certain standards, that’s not acceptable.

HH: Dr. Carson, have you discussed George Floyd with President Trump?

BC: Oh, very much so.

HH: Does the President believe George Floyd was murdered?

BC: Yes.

HH: Do you encourage him to say that publicly?

BC: You know, the President is an individual like all the rest of us. And you know, he has expressed, as you probably know, what he feels about that case when he was down for the NASA launch.

HH: Yeah, but not many people saw that. Don’t, do you think it would be helpful for him to repeat that message, because I actually think less than 1% of America knows about the NASA launch speech. It’s actually not NASA, it was, you know, it’s Elon Musk’s deal, SpaceX.

BC: Right. Or, you know, people could rebroadcast it. I mean, you know, the President obviously has a lot of different things on his mind. And we all have our opinions about what he should say and how he should say it and when he should say it and what he should do. That probably is not useful.

HH: Now you are in, you’re in the Cabinet, Dr. Carson. And you know a lot of people in the administration, and you’ve been involved in politics since 2015. I started talking, earlier, actually. Have you met anyone in the Trump administration who is a racist?

BC: I have not met anyone who is a racist at all. You know, and I don’t want to get too far off into that, but you know, I find real racists are the people who look at me and say he’s black, therefore he has to think this way. And if he doesn’t think this way, then he must be an Uncle Tom, he must be a race traitor, he must be this or any horrible thing they can think of. That is very racist.

HH: Well, judging anyone by the color of their skin is by definition racist. And I believe with Dr. King, the solution to that is to have a colorblind society. But now, in some circles which are more radical, they say a colorblind society is itself a racist idea. What do you think of that?

BC: Well, I think Dr. King would probably be horrified if he were here today seeing exactly the opposite what his dream was. You know, people being his dream theme, that people would be judged by their character and not the color of their skin, and we have turned that completely around. And what sense does that make when you stop and think about it? You know, what makes Hugh Hewitt who he is? Not just skin color, not your hair texture. It’s your brain. It’s the experiences that you’ve had in your life. That is so much more important than the external manifestations of who you are.

HH: I agree. I agree. But I think it’s going to be a very challenging season in America. And I look to the churches to lead here. And I don’t know that many people do. Do you agree with me on that?

BC: Oh, very much so. I mean, that is at the foundation of our nation is our faith. And you know, we, it’s on all of our money. In God we trust. And yet, as we attempt to exclude God from our society, it must be replaced with something else, and that something else does not seem to be very loving and kind.

HH: Well, I do think there’s a kindness deficit in the country which is as large as the national debt. And that can actually be addressed. I thought Al Sharpton’s eulogy for George Floyd where he talked about passersby and the Good Samaritan was on that point. People can’t pass by in justice, and they can’t pass by poverty. But you see it every day in the Housing and Urban Development. Do we see progress on those fronts, in your view, Dr. Carson?

BC: Oh, without question we’re seeing it all over. The opportunity zones have resulted in multiple new building projects which are beautiful in their public-private partnerships. Those are the kinds of things that we need to do. And with the CARES Act, the money that’s been invested, it’s much more than we normally have. I think we have the possibility of really making a major dent in the affordable housing situation and in the homelessness situation in this country. And you know, look at possibilities like teleworking which is going to become, I think, much more prominent now because people have found that it can work which will make available a lot of office space, which can potentially be converted into affordable housing. I mean, there are a lot of possibilities. We just have to open our eyes.

HH: Now Dr. Carson, I want to talk to you about one of the most controversial ongoing issues in America, which is kneeling during the National Anthem. Yesterday, one of my favorite football players, Baker Mayfield, because I’m a Cleveland Browns fan and have been since 1965, being going to their games. I’m a season ticket holder. He was asked by a supporter, a fan, would he be kneeling? He said pull your head out, I absolutely am. Now I do not think it was appropriate to condemn a fan for asking a question in those terms. But what do you think about athletes kneeling during the National Anthem?

BC: I think the important thing is if they are going to kneel during the National Anthem that they make sure that people understand why they’re kneeling. A lot of people are under the impression that they’re kneeling because they don’t respect our National Anthem or they don’t respect the flag or what it stands for. And in fact, I don’t think that’s the reason that most of them are kneeling. I think most of them are kneeling because you know, they want to protest some brutality in the police forces. They need to make that very clear. And of course, now that that has been brought to national attention, I’m not sure if it needs to continue.

HH: Now Mayfield went on yesterday afternoon to say exactly that, that he has extraordinary respect for the military, for police, but that racial injustice in policing has to end. So he was expanding on the symbolism of the kneeling. I asked three members, active duty members in the military who are in my family if they objected to players kneeling, specifically Mayfield, one of whom is a Browns fan. They absolutely not. Now they’re active duty. All of them have been in combat zones. They said absolutely not if they do what you said, which is to explain the symbolism. And that is, to me, my problem with symbolism generally is there are no words attached to it. When someone like LeBron James talks, he usually expands at length on what he speaks. Don’t we need more conversation and more explanation and fewer gestures, Dr. Carson?

BC: Oh, that would help so much. That would be amazing how good that would be. I mean, it’s sort of like when people get married. You know, they love each other, they can’t keep their hands off of each other, they’re talking to each other all the time. Before they get divorced, they stop talking to each other. There’s no communication. And their spouse becomes the devil incarnate. You know, that’s what happens when we don’t talk to each other.

HH: So is there any chance you might persuade the President that he ought not to be upset with players kneeling during the National Anthem?

BC: Well, I don’t think he has manifested as much animosity in that region lately. And I think we just continue to work with him. He’ll get there.

HH: I actually think it should not be a controversy, as the Brits like to say, a controversy or however they pronounce it. It ought not to be controversial this year. But it might me, and I think that would be unfortunate. Now the last thing I want to ask you about is what is going on in Seattle. I call it Biden Town, as do many people online. What do you think about that?

BC: Well, I think unfortunately, you know, we’ve reached a point where there’s so much white guilt that you know, people can be cajoled or seduced into doing things that don’t make any sense because they want people to say you see, I’m not racist, I’m a good person. And we need to just get beyond that and start using our brains and start doing things that are logical. Does it make any sense to have autonomous zones? Does it make any sense for you to be able to take over control of an area where somebody has their business and dictate to them what they must do? No. It makes no sense at all, not in the system that we have. And you know, people are going to have to start speaking out. The reason that a lot of this stuff is going on is because a lot of the good people, a lot of people with common sense are afraid to say anything because they don’t want to be ostracized. But the fact of the matter is you cannot be the land of the free if you’re not the home of the brave.

HH: Last question, Dr. Carson. Is America systemically racist?

BC: Of course not. You know, I’ve seen systemic racism growing up. I mean, we are so much better than that now. Do we still have racist people? Of course. You know, you’re always going to have people who think superficially and don’t think deeply. But you know, that doesn’t mean that the whole system is corrupted and needs to be changed. But if you’re looking to fundamentally change a society, and there are those who are looking to do that, you must first prove that it is dysfunctional. So anything that you can do that will create dysfunction helps to bolster that argument.

HH: Are there people seeking that sort of fundamental change, in your view, and not for the good?

BC: Well, we’ve heard people say we want to fundamentally change America. So we know that that’s the case. And there has been people. You know, go way back to the Fabians. You can go even beyond them. People who have an idea, and they’re not necessarily bad people. They just have a different concept of what America should be. They think it should be a place where you give the government control, and the government takes care of you from cradle to grave. And a lot of people have tried that and it doesn’t seem to work.

HH: It does not work. Dr. Ben Carson, always a pleasure. Thank you, Dr. I look forward to having you back throughout the year.

BC: Always a pleasure. Thank you, Hugh.

End of interview.