Legendary newsman Ted Koppel joins me in hour three of today’s show. discussing his new best-seller, Lights Out: A Cyberattack,A Nation Unprepared, Surviving the Aftermath:
HH: As I’ve been telling you for days, I’ve been looking forward to this next hour interview. Ted Koppel is the 42 year veteran of ABC News who many of us watched from, well, 1979 forward as Nightline came into being. He’s won every significant television award, including eight George Foster Peabody awards, 11 Overseas Press Clubs, 12 DuPont Columbia awards, and this is the stunner, 42 Emmys. Ted Koppel, welcome, it’s an honor to have you on the Hugh Hewitt Show, and congratulations on Lights Out, your new book.
TK: Well, thank you. I think we’re both old enough to do it on a first name basis, don’t you?
HH: Okay, Ted, well then, tell me where do you put 42 Emmys?
TK: Well, my wife didn’t let me bring them home until after I left ABC, but now I have a barn. I have my office in the barn, and they’re up on the rafter.
HH: Okay, because that’s a lot of Emmys. I don’t want to waste any time. Lights Out is a must-read book. It’s going on my necessary bookshelf. But before I go to the substance of it, I learned at the end of the book a little of your biography that I did not know. I did not know that your parents were refugees from Europe into England and during the War. When did, what happened? What were their circumstances of leaving Europe and getting to England?
TK: Well, they were German Jews who left in the late 30s, and they came over. They were not married at the time, but they married in England in 1939, and that’s where I was born in 1940.
HH: And so do you have actual memories of the blitz, not the blitz, but of bombing of England?
TK: Oh, I absolutely do, not so much of the bombing, but I remember my father, one of my earliest memories is summertime, early evening, my father holding me and pointing up at a flight of Spitfires going by, heading out toward the British Channel, the English Channel, and then waking me up in the middle of the night and taking me back out into the garden again when those squadrons came back. And there would always be a few gaps in the flight formation, and those planes, of course, had been shot down. It’s one of the very earliest memories I have.
HH: It’s an amazing part of Lights Out. And I’ve been to the Imperial War Museum, and been down in the recreation of the Blitz bunker. And of course, the one in your backyard was worthless if a bomb had hit it, as your mother triumphantly later would say. But it’s amazing that you bring that perspective to this, because you’re talking now about sort of an internet blitz, and whether or not it could happen.
TK: Well, the reason I go back to the 1940s and even the late 1930s before I was born is that I think that there is value in preparation, even when what you are preparing for doesn’t happen exactly the way you think it will. The British, for example, in 1939 and 1940 believed that Hitler was going to use poison gas against them. Thousands of women were trained as nurses to deal with poison gas attacks. There never was a poison gas attack on England. They evacuated well over a million people from London and some other major cities, and in point of fact, once the blitz began, more than half of those people returned to the cities, because they didn’t like it out in the country, and they preferred to deal with the blitz rather than living out in the countryside where quite frankly, they weren’t all that welcome. So there are things that take place that somehow manage to unify a community. I’m talking now about Londoners who really were unified during the War. And I mention my father, for example, who would have been disqualified as a former German citizen to join the British Army, nevertheless, was in a civilian group that went around every night, he and another man, one of them armed with a broom, and the other one armed with a garbage can lid. And this during a time when the Germans were dropping incendiary bombs on London. And if you could get up on a rooftop before the incendiary bomb burned through the roof and into the house and set the house on fire, you could sweep that bomb. They weren’t very big. You could sweep it to the ground. And the man on the ground, the other member of the Home Guard, would have the garbage can lid, and he would smother that bomb. So little things gave people a sense of unity, gave people a sense of usefulness, gave people a sense of preparedness. And I’m saying we are now confronting a danger in this country of a cyberattack on one or more of our power grids that has the potential of putting tens of millions of our fellow citizens without electricity for a period lasting weeks or even months.
HH: It’s a startling book. In fact, I will, I’ve been telling people that the first 10 pages are the scariest 10 pages I’ve read in a non-fiction book in a long time. Page 249, though, is where I go, quoting Ted Koppel. “The internet is a weapon of mass destruction.” There, it’s out. It’s blunt. And you have built to that conclusion, Ted Koppel, in the course of Lights Out. You just didn’t throw it out there. You built to that conclusion, I think, with overwhelming logic.
TK: Well, it’s not, Hugh, it’s not my conclusion. It’s the conclusion, I mean, one of the reasons I decided to write the book, quite frankly, is because I was seeing and hearing repeated warnings from the senior most members of our government, including the President, who warned about the danger of cyberattack on our infrastructure, singled out the power grid, in not one, but two State of the Union speeches. Not a whole lot was made of it. It didn’t even, it didn’t even warrant a headline. The then-Secretary of Defense, Leon Panetta, gave a speech to a bunch of security executives in New York City, and he warned about the danger of a cyber Pearl Harbor. You and I are old enough to know what the allusion to Pearl Harbor means to American citizens. This is not something that’s said lightly. When I raised the question with the former Secretary of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, what she thought the likelihood was of a successful cyberattack on the power grid, she said very, very high, 80-90%. And yet nobody was paying a whole lot of attention.
HH: Well, I think you’re going to change that with Lights Out. And I would say on Pages 96-99 is perhaps the most, an account of the most disturbing interview I’ve read in a long time. You’re sitting down, and all honor to Jeh Johnson, the Secretary of Homeland Defense, he’s a public servant and a good man, but when you sit down and you talk to him about the threats to the power grid, I quote here, “Johnson’s answer ran slightly more than 13 minutes, and he never addressed the question. It was,” you concluded a little later, “not an area in which he had any expertise.” And as you go on to account for all the aides in the room, Caitlin Durkovich, all of the rest of them, none of them seem to be very clued in, Ted Koppel, on this threat.
TK: Well, let me be perfectly frank. Caitlin Durkovich doesn’t agree with the conclusion of many others that I spoke with, that this is a likely eventuality. I must tell you, I was at an event in Washington just yesterday with the former director of the NSA, General Keith Alexander, and he said talking about all the industries and businesses and agencies in the United States, he said there are only two kinds of businesses out there – those that have been hacked, and those that don’t yet know it. The danger of cyberattacks is something, it’s not just a danger that’s off in the future somewhere. This is going on, on a daily basis, thousands upon thousands of times. But when I tell you, Hugh, that there is, somebody did the statistics on this and found that on average, the American company that has been hacked doesn’t know it for 279 days.
HH: Wow. I go back to the Durkovich interview. I went and looked her up after I read Lights Out, and I’m sure she’s very competent. She graduated from Duke University in 1994, and she’s done a lot of interesting things. But the military people you talk with who are more my age, 59, or have been out of command for a couple of years versus the youngsters, they’re just much more sober about this, realistic about this. I am just wondering whether or not the Obama administration is up to speed on what it needs to be up to speed with and has the competency levels it needs to be up to speed with these things.
TK: Well, one of the problems with acknowledging, and frankly, I spoke to every single Secretary of Homeland Security, beginning with Tom Ridge, who was the first, and including, as you point out, Jeh Johnson, who is the current Secretary of Homeland Security. They all acknowledge that they think this is going to happen. It’s simply a question that once you’ve acknowledged that, and you say all right, it’s going to happen, and the conclusion of people, the chief scientists, the former chief scientist of the NSA, a man by the name of George Kotter, had told me that he is convinced, I think he knows for a fact, that the Chinese and the Russians are already inside at least a few of our power grids.
HH: That was stunning.
TK: I’m sorry?
HH: That part, Mr. Kotter’s interview, is truly riveting, as is most of Lights Out.
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HH: What do you think America would look like if the power went out in a major city, or a broader region, for not one day or three or five, but ten or a month or a couple of months? Well, all of those scenarios are played out in Lights Out, Ted Koppel’s brand new bestseller, in which you will, if nothing else, learn a lot of new terms, like what a Schnabel is, and what a SCADA is. A SCADA is a supervisory control and data acquisition system. You learn about the Metcalf sub-station attack. You learn about a lot of things. Mostly, though, I put it down, Ted Koppel, and I said wow, the Operation Olympic Games that the United States and Israel unleashed against Iran in their nuclear weapons, I did not know about the retaliation against the oil company in Saudi Arabia. I just had no idea that it had happened. I don’t know how I missed that.
TK: Well, you know, the attack you’re talking about was where we and the Israelis succeeded in causing their nuclear centrifuges, in other words, the centrifuges with which they were creating nuclear fuel caused them to spin at a different rate than they are designed to spin. And the real key to that exercise was that they also managed to insert onto the television screen in the control room video of the centrifuges spinning at precisely the correct speed. And so everyone sitting in the control room was kind of looking up at these videos and saying yup, everything’s fine. And this apparently succeeded in setting the Iranian nuclear program back about a year and a half. But the Iranians responded. And interestingly enough, they didn’t respond against the Israelis. They didn’t respond against the United States. They responded against ARAMCO. ARAMCO is the Arab-American Oil company in Saudi Arabia. And they knocked out more than 30,000 of their computers, turning them effectively into what one Army intelligence officer told me was 30,000-plus bricks.
HH: It’s just amazing, and I, did that, was that widely covered at the time?
TK: It was, but you know, there are so many aspects to this story, and quite frankly, until I, you know, I spent the better part of a year researching the story and didn’t know a hell of a lot about this beforehand. And frankly, I’m not an expert on it today. I am simply, as I have been doing for most of my professional life, reporting what people who know more about a subject than I do tell me.
HH: Well, that’s what I do, and I’ve loved doing it for 25 years, and I hope to get 50 in like you have. But let me ask you about speculation in your book that perhaps Bashar Assad is running ops against Wall Street, and perhaps that’s why the red line was erased, and perhaps that is why we are reluctant to go full bore against Bashar Assad. And so I wrote in my notes, maybe President Obama is afraid. And is just had never occurred to me before, and with reason, that there are cyber vulnerabilities that we don’t know about, but that our government would. You introduce that.
TK: Well, I must tell you, this is something that George Kotter, the former chief scientist of the NSA. he’s now retired, told me I haven’t found anyone who’s been able to confirm that for me. In fact, I’ve found senior people in government who say no, we don’t think that ever happened. But the Saudis, or not the Saudis, the Syrians did launch cyberattacks on several Wall Street firms. And it is George Kotter’s conclusion, and he is a very, very smart, plugged-in man, that that may have had an impact at the time on the President’s decision not to go after Bashar al-Assad in Syria. It makes all kinds of sense. Whether in point of fact it has the additional advantage of being true, I can’t confirm for you. I just report what he told me.
HH: You also point out North Korea, in all likelihood, got into Sony, and that was a shot across our cyber bow. But that it’s not just North Korea. The Iranians, the Russians, the Chinese and the North Koreans are, and black hat gangs, you know, international rogue gangs, all have the capability to do this. And as some of your experts believe, they’ve already implanted that which they need to do it.
TK: Certainly, the Chinese have, certainly the Russians have, and even though you haven’t asked about it, let me just put some of your listeners’ minds at ease. Whatever they’ve done to us, we have surely, almost certainly, done to their power grid, done to their infrastructure. But the interesting thing, Hugh, is you’ve got sort of two graphs on a plane, intersection graphs – those who are most capable, and that would certainly be the Chinese and the Russians, are the least likely to do it, because they have so many interlocking interests with the United States. As you go down the list of capability, the Iranians would be next in line, the North Koreans would be next in line after them. Then you get down to some of the individual groups like ISIS. As you go down the line of capability, you go up the line of likelihood that it would happen. All you have to do is take a look at what’s been happening in Paris these last few days.
HH: That’s where I was going. The prosecutor today said they were using encrypted communications nodes, and ISIS put out the Schweppes can bomb pictures today. These are not unsophisticated people, Ted Koppel.
TK: No. A) they’re not unsophisticated, and B) they have a great deal of money. They’ve probably, they’ve probably stolen, and with the stolen oil that they have sold, they’ve accumulated somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 billion dollars. With $2 billion dollars, you can rent yourself or buy yourself an awful lot of cyber expertise. And the kind of equipment that you need to launch cyberattacks against our infrastructure, that equipment is readily available off the shelf. It doesn’t require a nuclear bomb. It doesn’t require an air force or a navy or an army to launch this kind of attack. And in the final analysis, what marks a terrorist group is it is a weaker entity using the kind of weapons that are available to the weak against the strong, going after vulnerable, civilian targets with AK-47s, which suicide vests. But if you think about the damage that they have done with those weapons, and then speculate just for a couple of minutes on the kind of damage they could do if they ever developed the expertise or were able to hire the expertise to go after our infrastructure. The pain would be infinitely worse.
HH: Well, you point out there’s even a debate about what would happen in the aftermath of a prolonged blackout in New York at fundamental level. If we don’t have an agreement on whether you evacuate Manhattan or you shelter in place and try to feed Manhattan, then we don’t really have a plan, do we?
TK: No, that’s exactly right. And the reason I raise that is I talked to the two top men at FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the number two man, who is a retired vice admiral from the Coast Guard, a very nice man, Joe Nimmich. He does not believe that the grids are as vulnerable as some of this colleagues do. But when I pressed him on it and said all right, but what if, what if there were this kind of attack on the Eastern Interconnect, and let’s just say New York City and its five boroughs lots its electric power, what would you do with those people? And his reaction was evacuate them. And I said eight million people? You’re going to evacuate eight million people? Well, he said you’re not giving me any alternative. What am I supposed to do? I mean, we don’t have enough, we don’t have enough food to maintain them in New York for an extended period of time.
HH: Hold that though, Ted Koppel, I’ll be right back. I’ll be right back with the author of Lights Out. Ted Koppel is of course a legendary newsman, now the author of the bestseller that you’ve got to go out and read, Lights Out.
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HH: Ted Koppel, when we went to break, you were saying Admiral Nimmich, the retired head of the Coast Guard, said look, you’re not leaving me any options. If New York goes dark, we’ve got to evacuate them. But his wasn’t the only opinion you ran into. You ran into the opposite opinion.
TK: Well, I ran into the opposite opinion, interestingly enough, from Admiral Nimmich’s boss, Craig Fugate, who is the administrator of FEMA. And what Mr. Fugate told me was yes, he believes that this is very likely, and that it can happen, and very likely will happen. And then when I’ve said to him, well, what are you going to do in the event of it hitting a city like New York? Are you going to evacuate New York? And he said you can’t evacuate that many people. It’s just not practical. When I talked to the head of Homeland Security for the state of New York at the time, and I said you know, evacuate, he said you’re crazy. We’re not going to evacuate New York. But when I then said to him, all right, how much food have you got, because…
TK: …you know, supplies of food are going to run out in a city like New York in about two days. And if you don’t have power out there, and you can’t run the pumps for the gas stations, then the trucks that deliver the food are going to have a hard time getting in. Remember now, we’re talking about an area that could cover many states, tens of millions of people. I said how much food have you got? He said oh, we’ve got about 25 million MRE’s, meals ready to eat. I said well, that’s great. Just taking the city of New York alone, you’ve got 8 million people. So you’ve got eight million into 25 million, you get three meals per person, over a three day period. Then what do you do? He said well, then we’re in trouble.
HH: Then we’re in…look, one of the things I found so fascinating about Lights Out, Ted Koppel, is that you dug into how the grid works – the RTO’s, the ISO’s. It is complicated, but it’s not impossible to master, even if you’re not an electric power industry executive. I came away thinking, though, they’re not going to be very happy with you for telling everyone that we basically all are living in a wonderland about reliability of our power, because that’s my conclusion from Lights Out.
TK: Well, and you know, to be perfectly honest, the people who are the industry representatives, the Edison Electric, for example, which is sort of a power institution, electric power institution, they don’t believe this is going to happen. Or at least they say they don’t believe it’s going to happen. But let me get wonkish on you just for a minute here, Hugh. Imagine a gigantic balloon with a thousand valves, and 500 of those valves introduce air into the balloon, and 500 of those valves take air out of the balloon. As long as you keep those 500 valves in perfect balance with the other 500, the balloon stays perfectly inflated. Too much air in, the balloon bursts. Too much air out, the balloon collapses. That in a nutshell is our electric power system. There has to be a perfect balance maintained between the amount of power, electricity that is generated, and electricity that is used. And if for some reason you can knock that balance out of kilter, than there are going to be cascading failures. So that can only be maintained by the internet, by what you referenced a little bit earlier in our conversation, those supervisory control and data acquisition systems, SCADA systems. Those are run on the internet. If you can get into the internet, and you can, you can knock those out of balance.
HH: And that is why people, we’ll come back after break and talk about preparation. But Lights Out will drive home one thing if nothing else, which is not only can people get in, they have. There’s no more chilling anecdote than at the 2011 Black Hat conference, Ted Koppel, where you say someone stood up and gave out the password to all of the SCADA’s.
TK: Yup, that’s right.
HH: You see, that’s, you did amazing reporting. How long did it take you to write this book?
TK: About a year and a half.
HH: And did your friends in the business say what are you up to, Koppel? This is not what you normally do.
TK: Actually, my wife was foremost among them, yes.
HH: (laughing) Well, tell her I am very grateful that you took the year and a half, because I think coming from Ted Koppel, a lot more people are going to take much more seriously the prospect of Lights Out than if it would come from my frequent guest, Frank Gaffney, I believe you’ve been on his show, or from anyone within the world of the preppers that we’re going to talk about after the break. So my hat is off to you. I’ll be right back with Ted Koppel, America.
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HH: When I wrote my book on Mitt Romney in 2006, I ventured to Salt Lake City, sat down with Elder Neil Maxwell, now gone to his reward, and a number of other members of the LDS Church and got an education in how the Mormons prepare for disasters. I have never seen anyone else dive into it in the way that Ted Koppel does in Lights Out, because he does a lot of chapters on preparing for the worst. And Ted Koppel, I have to take my hat off to you. I didn’t think anyone who was not a Mormon would ever get the Mormon Church the way I do, but you totally figured out their organizational excellence and their resiliency.
TK: Well, they have, one of the reasons that I spent one chapter on the history of the Mormon Church is precisely to make that point. They’ve been, you know, in their almost 200 year history, they have been pushed from pillar to post. They were founded by Joseph Smith, of course, in New York State, and eventually moved to Pennsylvania and Ohio, and to Missouri and Illinois until finally Joseph Smith and his younger brother were quite literally killed. They were assassinated. They were lynched, to put it simply, and then Brigham Young led the remaining Mormons out to the Great Salt Lake, I think, on the assumption that it was a desolate enough area that nobody else would bother them out there. But for 200 years, Mormons have been educated in the notion that bad things can happen and you have to be prepared. And they are prepared from the ground up, from the family level up, and from the organizational top down, as you well know.
HH: And I want to point out you’re very careful. I always do this. I’m not a Mormon, but I want to point out to people they’re very generous. And when Katrina hit, you detail that they rolled the trucks before anybody else had a clue what was happening, because in their 100-plus supply centers around the United States, they maintained that capacity. But I asked all of my students, I’m teaching this semester at Colorado Christian University, Ted Koppel, and I’ve got probably 75 students. I asked them all are there any preppers here. There was one, and it wasn’t really a prepper. And I’m not a prepper. I tell people, you know, if I lose my glasses, I’m blind, I’m dead. And I’m 59, so I’ve had a nice, long life. And I talked about this with the Fetching Mrs. Hewitt, in fact, after I finished Lights Out. But there are a lot of preppers, and now I kind of think they’re not nuts after reading Lights Out.
TK: Well, you know, I deliberately drew a distinction between the survivalists…
TK: …whom I think we all sort of perceive as being on the extreme right of the political spectrum, and sitting behind their machine gun tripod over their bunker waiting for the black U.N. helicopters to show up.
TK: They get no treatment in this book, because preppers, I think by and large, and really, the term prepper simply just refers to being prepared. And anyone who’s got you know, ten gallons of water and a six pack of tuna fish is entitled to call himself or herself a prepper. But some of these people, I mean, I think what unites them all is that they don’t necessarily expect federal or state government agencies to be able to protect them and provide for them in a time of great crisis, and so they’re doing things for themselves. Some of them go way out. I mean, some things are really kind of bizarre. But others are not, and they are quite reasonable.
HH: Oh, getting a generator seems to me to be the most reasonable thing in the world now. But I want to talk about the most ominous subtext of Lights Out, which is there will be violence if America goes dark, a lot of violence. We have, you know, hundreds of millions of weapons in this country, and desperate people will use them. You did not give flight to that scenario for very long, Ted Koppel, but you hinted at it repeatedly.
TK: Well, I, you know, you can’t ignore the fact there are 300 million guns in this country. And when people are desperate, when they and their families are lacking food, lacking water, lacking proper shelter, heat in the winter, cooling in the summer, the likelihood that there is going to be trouble, leading perhaps even to chaos, is great. And I think the only body in the country that is capable of responding to a situation like that is going to be the U.S. military. If you’re dealing with a number of states that are without electricity, tens of millions of people who are without the necessary things that come from having electricity, I’m afraid we’re going to have to rely on the military.
HH: Now you spend a lot of time talking to military people, including U.S. Cyber Command, Major General Brett Williams. I’m going back now to the problems that we faced vis-à-vis our foreign antagonists, including Iran. We apparently have great offensive capabilities, and we can take down things. But we’re not so good on the defensive, and that’s because it’s really hard to price risk. I mean, there’s a lot of economics in Lights Out as well, but there’s the reality that nobody wants to spend the money to prevent something that hasn’t happened, yet.
TK: Well, and in the final analysis, Hugh, you also have to come to the conclusion that the internet was never designed to be protected. It was, as one intelligence officer told me, really designed so that professors could exchange good ideas. And the idea of being able to superimpose on a mechanism that was never designed to be defended, nobody anticipated when the internet was first created, that anyone would try to take it down, that anyone would try to hack it. There was no concept of that in the early days, so the idea of defending it against attacks that no one had imagined was never taken into account. And trying after the fact to superimpose a 100% effective defense mechanism on top of all of this is, I’m told, essentially impossible.
HH: Ted Koppel, the book prior to Lights Out that I’ve told most people about this year is Team of Teams by Stanley McChrystal. General McChrystal talks a lot about resiliency, the ability to recover from unexpected assault or disaster. Do you think our electric power industry has much resiliency?
TK: They say they do. They believe they do. And I am satisfied that the larger, more profitable companies among them, and again, I remind you, there are 3,200 in the wake of deregulation. There are now 3,200 different companies out there. The big ones are well-protected. The big ones have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on cyber protection. The smaller ones have not. The great danger is, and I draw the analogy, as you know, Hugh, to medicine and to the Ebola virus. Those nurses who took care of the men from West Africa who had Ebola, they were covered from head to toe in protective gear. They both came down with Ebola. There is a reason that we borrow terms from medicine to describe what prevails on the internet.
HH: You made that case so persuasively. I’ll be right back, America, one more short segment with Ted Koppel.
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HH: Ted Koppel, today Jeb Bush gave a speech at the Citadel in which he said, “It is frankly appalling that the United States is not plainly superior to rivals who seek to undermine us in cyberspace.” A lot of his speech was about the internet. I’m curious if you think the fact that Ted Koppel wrote Lights Out, as opposed to anybody other, you know, from left or right, but that Ted Koppel is not known to me, politically. I actually don’t have any GPS on your politics at all, that you might introduce this subject and get people talking about it seriously throughout 2016?
TK: Oh, I do hope so. I profoundly hope so, Hugh, and I am so glad you raised this point, because I don’t think this should be an issue that divides conservatives from liberals, or Republicans from Democrats. It ought to be an issue that unites us all. There are aspects to this story, I know, like the tension between privacy and security, that is going to divide people politically. But in terms of the need to prepare, the need to do everything we can to protect the grid, but also to anticipate the likelihood that a grid can be taken down, I think transcends all politics.
HH: You made a great argument about the civil defense efforts of the 50s, sending messages as well. It’s a very sophisticated argument. I spent some time on making notes on how you communicate with your adversaries that you are ready. And let’s close on that. That was, people make fun of it now, but it sent a message, and that message was valuable.
TK: Well, the message went in both directions. You remember both we and the Soviets tried to give the impression to the other that we could sustain and survive a nuclear attack. In point in fact, what really happened is that the Soviets and we came to a conclusion at roughly the same time that there was no effective defense against a nuclear attack. And so for the past 50, 60 years, we have actually been protected from nuclear attack by a balance of terror, by the knowledge that if we attack them or they attack us, the other side is always capable of responding and inflicting as much or even greater harm. That knowledge has kept us safe in a nuclear sense. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re going to be able to reach the same kind of conclusion when it comes to cyberwar…
HH: Not yet.
TK: …because too many people have access, too many people can launch attacks, and they’re not all nation-states.
HH: And hopefully, that alone will get people to read Lights Out, and come to the conclusion about what ought to happen and who ought to do it. Ted Koppel, thank you for joining me for an entire hour. The book is linked at Hughhewitt.com. You’ve done an amazing public service, and I appreciate you spending so much time talking about it here on the Hugh Hewitt Show.
TK: You’re very kind, Hugh, I’ve enjoyed being with you. Thank you.
End of interview.