HH: Joined now from Minnesota by James Lileks. James has been blogging pretty much a lot at www.buzz.mn. James, how are you?
JL: I’m fine, Hugh, good to hear your voice. How are you?
HH: Good. Now walk us through, would you, just for a little understanding of when you first found out about this story, because we called you yesterday and you weren’t home.
JL: I was standing at the Apple Genius bar at the Mall, working with some technical issues, and my wife called me on the very phone that I was trying to have fixed, thereby proving that it worked. And the modern world is a strange thing. I immediately left the store, and started calling up web pages on my little I-phone as I walked out of the Mall, and had early information in front of me by the time I got to my car, and then drove straight home to start working, because I knew I’d be having to blog about this and sort of aggregate all the stuff that’s going on in the Twin Cities media for the rest of the night. So that’s where I was. And when she said the words, they made no sense, as I wrote yesterday. You understand exactly what those words are, and they’re put together in a coherent and understandable fashion, but your brain just has a brick wall that refuses to accept what you’ve just been told, that the bridge across which you have driven two or three times a week for as long as you can remember, as long as you’ve lived in the city, a bridge with an absolutely stunning and magnificent view of the Twin Cities, at twilight, it’s picture postcard, every time in the winter, it’s this crystalline palace. You know that view. You know that place. And it’s gone. And then you have to wonder exactly what the toll is going to be. And to be frank, we’re still waiting for the toll to be told.
HH: It’s a pretty awful time. I’ve been, as with most of America, watching this on and off throughout the day whenever I’ve been back in my hotel room. And there’s…I don’t know what CNN is doing talking to these poor girls, 18 and 20, from Venezuela, whose mom and dad adopted, and they’re down there with their dad, and it’s awful. Have you seen this?
JL: There’s this…it may be the same story that I’m seeing here that I just posted on Buzz. There are families that have not heard from their loved ones.
JL: And the story that I just posted ends with the daughter’s firm belief that her mother is alive. And there are lots of people missing, and 24 hours after the event, you presume what you presume. You just…nobody wants to come out and say it, because it really doesn’t need to be said. They’re going to have to do the human interest stories. I mean, that’s inevitable on a case like this. But it’s absolutely wrenching. And the fact is that the stories that are going to tear the most at your heartstrings are going to come out one after the other for the next few hours and the next few days and the next few weeks, as things are found. It’s hard for them to do anything at the moment. There are thirty cars in the river, and some of them…I’m sorry, there are fifty cars in the river, they say, and some of them are under gigantic chunks of concrete. They can’t get to them. They tried to make a rescue, well, not a rescue, they tried to make a recovery today, but the currents and the debris made it impossible, and they had to pull the diving team. So even the people who wanted some amount of closure, to use that overused word, were denied that even today, and have to endure a second day of waiting and thinking and presuming.
HH: Now I did note that the interview with the sergeant who ran down, slid down the bridge, left his radio and went in, it’s one of those things we’ve come to expect, collective courage on behalf of the first responders. But it really is pretty amazing what Minnesota’s finest have been doing the last 24 hours.
JL: Well, there’s a couple of things. One, it’s been very…you look for silver linings, I guess. You look for good news. And it’s been very gratifying to see exactly how crisp and professional and well done the first responding has been. I mean, there’s always, events like this always have stories of chaos and confusion and smoke and tumult. But everything seems to have done pretty orderly, and guys knew what they were doing. Governor Pawlenty has declared what they now call a peacetime emergency, which is the technical term used to operate some emergency centers, and Minnesota emergency operational plan. It’s something that they set up to deal with everything from a nuclear emergency to bird flu. And so they have, they had this stuff in place. But we’re all sort of used to thinking well, yeah, they’ve got this stuff in place, but what’s going to happen when the rubber meets the road? Well, that happened yesterday, and you not only saw the individual heroism and the collective heroism that you saw, but you also saw a fairly well organized, efficient operation. And that’s very Minnesotan. But the other thing is the acts of heroism of people who aren’t in the heroism business. I was watching a story last night of a man who survived the crash, and that in itself is astonishing.
HH: Yeah, it is.
JL: That people rode the bridge down.
HH: There are a few of those. I’ve seen of couple of those.
JL: And imagine if…and again, I’m repeating what I posted last night, but imagine that you’ve ridden this thing down, and your car is at an angle, and you’re stunned and you’re alive, and you’re fumbling with your seat belt, and you get out of your car, and you’re trying to process everything, and then you see a bus, then you see a school bus, what do you do? You run towards it, of course, and that’s what these men did, the guys who had survived the fall went after the bus, in which were 60 children coming back from a youth council meeting of some sort. It was some camp they’d been to, and started to see what they could do, and to pull them out and to get them to safety. And they all lived.
JL: A few of them went to the hospital. There’s some injuries, but they all lived.
HH: Yeah, I saw an interview with the kid who kicked the door open, one of the counselors who looks to be about 16 going on 14.
HH: …and began shepherding the kids out of there. How did they run to the bus? I mean, wasn’t that uphill at that point?
JL: Yeah. Well, you know, I bet if you ask them, they wouldn’t be able to tell you. I’ll bet if you ask them, they have probably not a great deal of recollection as to what their legs were telling them as they were going at a crazy angle on a busted piece of concrete with a yellow stripe on it. But they did it.
HH: Now let me get your reaction. I hate to do this, but I’m going to, because it’s in the news.
HH: Senator Patty Murray, Democrat, Washington, who chairs the Appropriations Subcommittee that funds transportations, slammed President Bush for threatening to veto the transportation bill because it exceeds his initial budget request. “This is what I worry about every day. The lack of investment and infrastructure is frightening, Murray said. This is what Bush is threatening to veto, investment and infrastructure for roads we go to work on every day.”
JL: Yeah. Well, (sigh)
HH: But James…
JL: There are dead people in the river.
HH: That’s what I mean!
JL: And people are making political hay out of this.
JL: People are attempting to score a transient point for personal political gain while there are dead people unrecovered in the river. You know, maybe you want to wait a couple of weeks before you start making your own little vendetta about this. But I’d wait for them to pull the bodies out and tell the families first. It’s despicable. Well, it’s not unusual. It’s not unusual. For one thing, I mean, there are various levels of this sort of cold, of this kind of reaction that I’ve been seeing around the web. There are a couple of places that I go to, you know, wide open discussion forms where you’re going to find 20% of the people are going to provide, you know, happen to be engineers, and ten of those happen to be bridge structural engineers, and provide you with a wealth of detail that help you. And then there are going to be 50% of the people who are generally checking on the site to say they’re sorry that it happened, that they know somebody in Minneapolis. And then there’s going to be the 30% who absolutely delight in finding some sort of cruel humor in this, and they’re usually the people, too, who love to make a political point about this, because the aperture through which they view the world is so small and narrow and rusty and crusty, that it’s the only thing that their heart comes back to, is who they hate and how this reflects on the person that they hate, be it mom or dad, or Republicans or the President or whatever. And the Senator that you just quoted is simply a larger version of some of the people who bottom feed on the internet in the comment boards. I’m sorry, but you know, that’s just not the time.
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HH: James, you’ve got a small child, a daughter in primary grades. What’s the effect on her? How has she reacted to this?
JL: Well, let me get to that in a second here, because I wanted to just follow up on something we said before the break, and that had to do with the reactions in Congress.
JL: You know, it is a bipartisan thing, this temptation. I’m reading here on the AP wire today that they’ve attempted to spend $250 million dollars to help repair the bridge. Harry Reid said it’s too soon to commit to providing that money, can’t come out with it in 24 hours, he said. But then, Representative Tom Petry in the House, in Wisconsin, said that the nation had not spent enough money on transportation infrastructure. “People think they’re saving money by not investing in infrastructure, and the result is you have catastrophes like this.” Well you know, maybe not. Maybe this was some horrid concatenation of events from the traffic to the weather to the construction to the resonance set off by the train rumbling underneath. You don’t know. We’ll find out. But if you’re saying that we’d better replace every single bridge that the federal inspectors have just declared to be safe, well then, all right, put the bill out there, and say that something that has a category…it’s ridiculous. I mean, it’s attempting to make hay out of something without knowing the particular details yet.
HH: There are 77,000 bridges in the United States in category four, which this bridge was in.
HH: And this bridge, I like to point out to people, today, there was a $9 million dollar repair project underway on the bridge.
HH: It wasn’t that they didn’t have the money to work on the bridge. They didn’t inspect it the right way, or maybe it was impossible to inspect it the right way.
JL: Or maybe the inspections were correct, and something happened that we just don’t know.
JL: 35W, of which this is a part, is torn up around here because of a huge infrastructure investment that we’re making, and making sure that the traffic is going to move safer and swifter in this part of the city. Huge amounts of money are being spent on it, and they’re talking about an additional billion dollars to run a light rail train from one part of the city to the other, in addition to the billion that they’ve already spent. So a lot of money is being spent. It’s the people who are making the point that somehow, because we haven’t jacked the gas tax up enough, only part of which actually goes to something like roads, that we haven’t done that enough, that that’s what it is, that if the Governor had increased the gas tax by seven cents and wasn’t so beholden to the anti-tax effort, that the bridge would still be there today, and all those people would be alive. It’s preposterous.
HH: But it does make it easier for people, doesn’t it?
HH: If people just say it’s always about the money and politics, it makes it easier for them to deal with the randomness of this. I’m thinking of the St. Francis dam in Los Angeles, the Wheeling, West Virginia bridge, this stuff happens occasionally. It’s terrible.
JL: Things fall down.
JL: And it may be that, it may be that this could have been prevented. And if that’s the case, we’re going to learn from it. But again, it’s the tendency to see everything through that narrow aperture of politics, it’s just disgusting, and it’s rampant around these parts. Less so on my site. I’m happy to say that people have generally been civil about this with a few exceptions. Now you asked about my daughter…
JL: I have a seven year old, and this is the bridge to Nana’s house. We take it quite a lot. And when she found out what had happened, she didn’t want to hear about it for the entire night. She didn’t want to hear…my wife went downstairs to watch it on television, and the very sound of the television trickling up from downstairs upset her. The fact that I was writing about it upset her. She asked me, really, not to write about it, and she almost sort of cried a little when she pled, please Daddy, don’t write about it. This is one of those things that just absolutely…and she’s fine now. I mean, she’s not scarred by it in any means, but it just shakes the world, because bridges don’t fall down when you’re seven. Houses don’t fall down. Schools don’t burn. The world is supposed to be solid and safe. And so this was the first time that I’d ever seen her sort of glimpse the fact that the world is not exactly held together with rebar and indestructible wire, that is actually has its fungible, frangible places. So she’ll be fine, but it was traumatic, as you can well understand.
HH: Well, I’ll bet. I’ll bet you for a lot of people, younger and older than her, it’s going to be wildly traumatic. A lot of people say that the Wheeling, West Virginia thing gave people fears of bridges, including mine, for many, many years afterwards. And again, it’s because bridges aren’t supposed to fall down. Tell me, though, generally speaking, as you watch Minnesotans, what do you think of their reaction?
JL: Heartening. It’s what I expect of people up here. It’s sober, the news media, for example, I can’t judge for what news media is like in other cities, but it was remarkably sober and professional and crisp and helpful. And this is one of those moments, as I also wrote, that…well, we’ll get to the mainstream media versus the new media in just a bit here. But the general reaction of people has been shock and horror, of course, but it’s…there hasn’t been a great national…let’s put it this way. I don’t think anybody’s going to be holding a rally in Loring Park and holding lit candles to commemorate the victims. That sort of pathos you don’t find around these parts. People are still a little more stoic and Nordic.
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HH: James, I don’t know if you’ve heard or read this yet, but I want to read about six paragraphs. Jim who blogs as Sisyphus at Nihilist in Golf Pants write this…
JL: Oh, absolutely.
HH: “I was on a river cruise this evening, and witnessed the I35W bridge collapse. Here’s my account. Shortly after 6pm today, I was on a Mississippi River dinner cruise organized by my work. We left from Boom Island, headed down towards St. Paul, enjoying a cold one as we passed through the upper lock by St. Anthony Falls on a pleasant, warm evening. The only worry was that the rain wouldn’t hold off until the cruise was complete. I made my way up to the front of the boat to watch along a half dozen or so others as the boat approached the lower lock. Then I saw something I hope I never see the like of again. As our boat approached the entrance of the lock, the bridge a few hundred yards beyond, collapsed before our very eyes. I remember seeing the bridge buckle, and a white vehicle fall in the water, then the span of the bridge on the east bank side crumpled up like an accordion, and the entire bridge fell towards the river. It was over before my brain could comprehend what I was seeing. You just don’t expect to see a bridge collapse before your eyes with no warning. And not being accustomed to looking at the city from on the river, I didn’t immediately realize the bridge I had just seen fall into the Mississippi was the I35W bridge. The minute after the collapse was eerily quiet. As we stared in disbelief at the wreckage, it began to sink in that we had just witnessed a major catastrophe. The east bank of the bridge was bent over like an accordion, and there was a blue SUV or a minivan, and two other vehicles on the downward slant towards the river. It seemed odd that the only evidence of disaster as of yet was the fallen bridge itself. No sirens, no helicopters, no flashing lights. Of course, it was far too early for any of that, but it did add to the surrealism of the moment. Our boat had continued forward as if nothing had happened. But our captain soon announced that we would wait in the area to see if our boat could be of assistance in the rescue. We would have to pass down through the lock to be the level of the collapsed bridge. Time seemed to crawl by. Everybody on board was shaken, and we began discussing what we had seen amongst ourselves. Each of us who’d been looking at the bridge while it collapsed remembered seeing one and only one car falling, and each of us remembered a different car. Another oddity is that none of us remember hearing any noise from the collapse at all.” It goes on, but that’s an amazing bit of reportage.
JL: That’s quite extraordinary, yeah. I mean, and it’s exactly what the new media is tailored to do, and it’s one of the things that’s been invaluable as I assemble stuff. But I have to be honest here, is that this is one of those situations also where the mainstream media, where the old media, really shines, because, again, of organization and resources. Now it’s great that we’ve got a blog where I can find something like that, thanks to the Fraters guys, and put it up for other people to read. But by the same token, I also depend on television stations having a helicopter to be able to go and fly over and show what happened. So a lot of what I did yesterday, the live blogging, I had to do with aggregating stuff that was coming in from major news sources…
JL: …because they just had…there were some sporting events downtown, so they already had reporters in the area, and they were able to badge their way past any cordons, and get pictures. But then again, there was a guy, there were a couple of people who lived in a large tower right by the site and took pictures. There was a guy who lived very close to the site who took some extraordinary pictures, and within a few minutes, that had gotten linked and moved up the chain, until the server couldn’t handle it anymore and burst into flames, but everyone had seen his pictures. So this is one of those things where old and new really, really did come together to reinforce one another.
HH: Now the…I’m trying to figure out a category, and I don’t want to be indifferent to the people who are grieving tonight, but we had 9/11, we had Katrina, but this is a different, this is like the St. Francis dam, I believe, in Los Angeles. What else goes in this category?
JL: I don’t know. It’s a category unto itself, I think, because there are bridge failures, but you have a bridge failure due to an earthquake, for example, in that nobody’s particularly surprised that that’s a consequence of a major earthquake.
JL: It’s unique to us because we don’t have this kind of stuff happen. There’s no great history of things befalling the Twin Cities. It’s almost led this charmed life with a killer snowstorm on Armistice Day in the 40’s, and maybe the odd tornado touching down here and there every decade or so. But generally, it’s Oz. So for it to happen here, and to happen at rush hour, and to happen in the absolute heart of the city, and to happen at the nexus of the transportation network, is almost unique in itself. And again, given the size of the market here, it’s a huge blow. So I don’t know. I can’t quite categorize it. It’s not a 9/11, and I’m a little dismayed that people are making that comparison, which they are. I mean, in as much as it was something that happened on a nice day and nobody expect it, I suppose, but it’s completely different. And it’s not a Katrina, because a Katrina was just a hellacious force of nature. It’s…maybe it’s a category unto itself, the thing that happened in Minneapolis, and didn’t change the way we think about things. I don’t think anybody’s going to be giving the obligatory I don’t think it’ll ever be the same again.
HH: No, it’s…I’m going to talk to Michele Bachmann tonight, Congresswoman from the area, to John Kline, Congressman from the area, to John Hinderaker to Ed Morrissey. But I’m just trying to get an idea of the sense of disruption that will happen, obviously to people who have lost loved ones, extraordinary disruption. But…
JL: Oh, the disruption’s going to be, the disruption is extraordinary. As I said, this is right in the center of where the highways, the north-south and the east-west tie together. So this really just truly, just absolutely takes the heart out of the ability to get here and there. Now as somebody said, we don’t have a backup 35W that people can take. There are other routes that people are going to be transferring to, and there’s going to be traffic delays for two years interminable in downtown. But it’s, I mean, we’ll get past that. I think people will learn to deal with that. If anything, it’s…what else comes to mind? There was an explosion at a mill, the Pillsbury A mill, way back in the day. Mills used to blow up with a certain amount of regularity, but this was really big, all the airborne dust, and it went off and blew the mill to Kingdom come.
HH: That’s like the East Ohio Gas Company explosion in Cleveland in the 40’s, yeah.
JL: Right, well…
HH: It blew up nine blocks or something.
JL: Well, yeah, just took everything out, and it was commemorated in everything from plays to sheet music. You know, the Pillsbury A mill disaster rag. I mean, it was just one of those things that everybody remembered, and came at a time that seared, to use another obvious word, in the consciousness of the city. So I think it’s one of those things that people here are never going to forget, and it’s, as I wrote again, to keep repeating myself, it’s going to be impossible for anybody of this generation and younger to drive across the new bridge when it’s built and not view that magnificent view with a tinge of regret and remembrance.
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HH: James, I don’t think that whole line is going to work. It’s not about money, it’s about the inability to identify an odd…who knows what this is about? No one can know at this point.
JL: I mean, it may be about priorities. It may be about saying that what we have to do is to start repairing bridges a lot faster. And if this leads to a national examination of the state infrastructure, that’s fine. As long as it does something more than convene blue ribbon panels and give people a lot of chances to huff and puff and talk about how much they care about the nation’s crumbling, et cetera. If it actually leads to greater steps up in inspections, and a dedication to making sure that everything survives into the 22nd Century, fabulous.
HH: Well, I’m reminded of the Space Shuttle. When a tile came off, they learned you can’t let tiles come off. When a slip strike fault hit for the first time, they learned something about earthquakes. There might be something here about bridges. I guess you guys had extreme weather and a train, right? There are all these odd clues, but nobody really knows.
JL: No, nobody does at the moment. People are looking at the pictures and saying well, look, it’s rusty, there. As I heard somebody discussing today in a fascinating theory, it may have been some particular resonance that was set off by the train and the gate of the traffic and a bunch of…I mean, once we learn all these variable, and they figure out exactly what it is, if it’s something we can learn, then there be something to have come of this. But even if we don’t learn anything specifically about this, I think it would be a marvelous opportunity to take a look at what we could do about making sure that it doesn’t happen again. And that isn’t just an excuse to just spend more money. You know, if that’s, if it leads to them saying we’ve got to hike the gas tax, and then ten years down the road we find that 70% of it was funneled off into building elaborate art work for the various new light rail stations, nobody’s going to be happy about that.
HH: four people are dead, 79 are injured, many of them critically, 50 cars are…is that the right number? 50 in the water, James?
JL: That’s an estimation. It’s…they say fifty, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was less or more. I’m not sure they exactly know.
HH: And there are stories of heroism and stories of miracles, including the school bus. We’ll talk with you about your reactions to this when we come back.
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DP: This is Generalissimo Duane with the Hugh Hewitt Show. Hugh is still back in D.C., and if you missed the first hour, we’re having a little bit of a phone problem, but it’s better than last hour, because I’m actually joined by a guy that actually knows how to host, a guy named James Lileks. James, are you still with us?
JL: Still with you, Generalissimo. I’m tempted, I was tempted to do a little pause, and then come back and say “-lly Ballou here on the scene.”
DP: (laughing) Exactly.
JL: In Bob and Ray style. But that would fit for today.
DP: Well, just about three seconds before I knew I had to go back on again, Hugh just called me on his cell phone, saying tell James he’s on.
JL: Okay (laughing). Yeah, well, you know, here’s the strange thing. Cell phones, one of the ways that people found out I was talking to folks today, one of the ways people found out that something had happened yesterday, at the Apple store, I was talking to my guy, and he said all of a sudden, at about six o’clock or so, all of their demo units on the floor went blank. All of their I-phones lost their ATT Edge connection. And they’re looking at these things saying oh, great, the network’s down. And somebody else looked at his phone, and said no, I’m on T-Mobile, and T-Mobile’s down, too, which is scary. You know, it’s like the power goes off, and then you go to the phone, and the phone doesn’t work, either. You suspect something systemic. And sure enough, as more people came into the store and were flipping open their phones, Verizon was down, they lost, the system was just overloaded and crashed. And you couldn’t make phone calls. Eventually, it got back up, and got its legs underneath it again, but they had, the city has a new wireless system that it’s civic owned, and they provided free wi-fi downtown for people who were coming in to try to IM people and tell them that they were safe, or where they were, or stuff like that.
JL: So that’s one of those little modern moments. On the one hand, the old style system, which is cell phones, which is sort of, you know, archaic technology for all its advancements, that didn’t work. But wi-fi, which nobody would have predicted ten years ago, stepped into the breech and people were zapping stuff on little handhelds and computers. So it’s, I’m frankly surprised that there isn’t more video than there is, because there’s so many people walking around with small movie cameras in their pockets, be it a phone or a camera, that you’d think there would be more. But then again, if it had happened to me, and I’d been on the bridge, I’m not sure that my first impulse would have been to get out a phone.
DP: That’s what I’m saying, is I can’t imagine that many people that would actually have that initial impulse to one, recognize what’s happening, and say I’ve got to capture this on film.
JL: I’m not sure. If you remember, there’s that famous picture up on Drudge a while ago when there was a sewer line explosion, or some sort of gas main that blew up in…
DP: Right, in New York.
JL: …New York City, and there was all these pictures of people standing there filming it on their cell phones. That’s the thing. There’s so many of these about nowadays that you would think that we’d have it from more angles. What we do have, and this is astonishing, is some security camera footage that CNN was first to get.
DP: I saw that this morning, yes.
JL: And it’s just, it’s, I mean, it’s remarkable stuff. You just see it go down. And it reminds you that there’s hardly, it seems, an aspect of the world where something like this happens, and there’s not going to be a photographic record of it, it just matters how long you have to wait for it to come out. The old days of waiting for the Daguerreotype to be shipped in by pony to be put into the issue of Harper’s Weekly are long gone.
DP: You’ll see something like that. You’ll see video of a bridge coming down, or some major thing happening in a movie, and you don’t even think twice about it.
DP: But you see video of it, and you know it’s reality, and all of a sudden, you just, the reaction you have is it just takes your breath away.
JL: It is, and it also reminds you that no matter how many Jerry Bruckheimer movies you see, there’s a stunning difference between the real thing and movies. When you’re sitting in a dark room munching on popcorn, your brain just sort of processes this as the sort of thing that you’re expected to see, and you know, you just think they’ve done this with computers. But when it happens in real life, nobody looks at the CNN footage and says they’ve done this with computers, unless of course, they’re a 9/11 truther, and are trying to believe now that the Bilderbergers did this in order to make us go to war with Canada or something.
DP: Exactly, exactly. So at what point, you’re never going to get back to complete normalcy, but at what point does life go on? I mean, at what point do people turn a corner here?
JL: Soon. Like I was saying before, we’re pretty resilient people, and this isn’t going to be like Ground Zero. I remember going to New York in March of 2002, and sitting by the TV and watching as they, I think, they took the last girder out. There was some last moment, some last piece of scrap, and the truck went away with an American flag draped on it, and all the hard hats had their hats off, and it was a solemn moment. And it reminded you that what happened in September took until March to put out the fires and clean it all up. Clean up here and construction’s going to take an awful long time, but we’ll have this bridge up, and people will cross it before the Trade Center replacement is built, I’ll tell you that. But as far as psychologically, you know, it’s one of those things where I don’t think this is going to be a deep psychological wound on the city of Minneapolis. And people here are pretty straightforward about it, and like will go on quite quickly. We’ll hear the stories, and that’s what’s going to hurt for the next couple of weeks, is the one after the other story, and the disposition of the missing are found.
DP: Now the Fair starts when?
JL: The Fair starts at the end of the month, runs ten days, goes to Labor Day, and there will be a…I’m sure that there will be something solemn there. It’s interesting how MinDot, the Minnesota Department of Transportation, had decided not to have a State Fair booth anymore. So people will no longer be able to have their picture with Larry the Crash Dummy, I guess. If they had had one, it would have had a particularly interesting take this year, I’m sure. They would have had, they would have had to retool the exhibits in order to encompass this. But there’ll be something. There will be some memorial at the Fair, I’m sure. There will be some opportunity for people to contribute to the victims.