HH: It is the last hour of radio of the Hugh Hewitt Show of the week. That means it’s time for the Hillsdale Dialogue. And it is our fifth and final installment of a series on Thomas Aquinas with Professor Lee Cole of Hillsdale College and Dr. Larry Arnn, the president of the college. And many of you have written to me and said how wonderful this has been, but I have saved the best for last, and not by any design. This has all been accidental, except nothing’s accidental. And I was in Colorado Springs a couple of weeks ago at Corpus Christi Church, at Saturday night Mass, and the good pastor there finished with an exhortation that people ought to read Thomas Aquinas’ hymn on the Eucharist, of which, of course, I had never heard. So I immediately went back to my computer and asked Kyle, the wonderful savant who makes all these things happen at Hillsdale, could you ask Professor Cole and Dr. Arnn if there is such a thing as a hymn on the Eucharist. And appears in my email box the Aquinas Prayer Book, the Prayers and Hymns of St. Thomas Aquinas, and a paper by Professor Cole, So Much Straw: Thomas Aquinas and the End of Metaphysics. And these are both blessings. These are both wonderful. So let me start by thanking you both, and then Professor Cole, what is this Aquinas prayer book? When did he find time to become a hymnist?
LC: Well, I’m not sure he had to sort of carve out time. And I think reading Aquinas’ prayers are important in a couple of respects. First of all, we come to know Aquinas a little bit more intimately. And we crack through this veneer that Aquinas is this just kind of theological cyborg sent from outer space who just does this sort of calculative reasoning all the time. And in fact, he’s a flesh and blood human being, and it allows us to see that his theological reflections, his speculative reflections that we find in the Summa Theologia, for example, are actually tied to a very intense prayer life. And I read a scholar recently who said that Aquinas, perhaps more than anyone in history, made his whole life centered around theology and knowledge of God. And really, his prayer life and his theological life for him are part of the exact same life. They’re all ways of coming to know God more intimately.
HH: Did you happen to bring the Aquinas Prayer Book with you to the Hillsdale studio today?
LC: I did, actually.
HH: Well, after I ask Dr. Arnn a question, I’m going to ask you if you wouldn’t mind reading For Ordering A Life Wisely, the first prayer in that book, which St. Thomas recited daily before the image of Christ to give someone a great example of his prayers. Dr. Arnn, I’ve got to ask you, you’re going to end up with all sorts of Catholics crawling all over Hillsdale, because they’re going to read so much straw, Thomas Aquinas and the End of Metaphysics, and they’re going to want to come study with Professor Cole.
LA: Well, let me quote John Paul II on that, which is that according to him, the Catholic Church may be the best, but it isn’t the only way to Heaven.
HH: I’m just saying, this is a great, my marketing department should be putting up so much straw. So Professor Cole, for the audience’s benefit, would you tell them what For Ordering A Life Wisely is?
LC: Okay, so Hugh, do you want me to read the whole thing here?
LC: Or you just want to give…
HH: Yup, the whole thing.
LC: Okay, it’s a little lengthy.
LC: Now well, I’ll preface this by the following remark that relates to a comment that you just made, a kind of coy remark about Catholicism. I have heard Aquinas’ prayers of late being uttered at parents’ weekend and major events by even our Evangelical students. So they’ve taken, been taken by Aquinas’ prayer life, which is a great thing. It’s a great resource.
LA: Let me interrupt and just object to the word even, our Even Gelical students, and also say Hillsdale College is a really weird place, because nearly everyone is an ardent Christian here, and it is remarkably evenly split between Catholic and Protestant, maybe 35% Catholic, 40% Catholic, something like that. And so it’s a strange phenomenon. It doesn’t happen in very many places.
LC: I tell parents all the time that if you want to send your Christian son or daughter to a school, there might be no better place in the country than Hillsdale College, which is of course non-denominational.
HH: Where they will study something such as For Ordering A Life Wisely.
LC: Okay, let’s take it away. All right. “Oh, merciful God, grant that I may desire ardently, search prudently, recognize truly, and bring to perfection, bring to perfect completion whatever is pleasing to You for the praise and glory of Your name. Put my life in good order, oh, my God. Grant that I may know what you require me to do. Bestow upon me the power to accomplish Your will as is necessary and fitting for the salvation of my soul. Grant to me, oh Lord, my God, that I may not falter in times of prosperity or adversity so that I may not be exalted in the former, nor dejected in the latter. May I not rejoice in anything unless it leads me to You. May I not be saddened by anything unless it turns me from You. May I desire to please no one, nor fear to displease anyone but You. May all transitory things, oh Lord, be worthless to me. And may all things eternal be ever cherished by me. May any joy without You be burdensome for me, and may I not desire anything else besides You. May all work, oh Lord, delight me when done for Your sake, and may all repose not centered in You be ever wearisome for me. Grant unto me, my God, that I may direct my hear to You, and that in my failures, I may ever feel remorse for my sins and never lose the resolve to change. Oh Lord, my God, make me submissive without protest, poor without discouragement, chaste without regret, patient without complaint, humble without posturing, cheerful without frivolity, mature without gloom, and quick-witted without flippancy. Oh Lord, my God, let me fear You without losing hope, be truthful without guile, do good works without presumption, rebuke my neighbor without haughtiness and without hypocrisy, strengthen him by word and example. Give to me, oh Lord God, a watchful heart, which no capricious thought can lure away from You. Give to me a noble heart, which no unworthy desire can debase. Give to me a resolute heart which no intention can divert. Give to me a stalwart heart which no tribulation can overcome. Give to me a temperate heart which no violent passion can slave. Give to me, oh Lord, my God, understanding of You, diligence in seeking You, wisdom in finding You, discourse ever pleasing to You, perseverance in waiting for You, and confidence in finally embracing You. Grant that with Your hardships, I may be burdened in reparation here that Your benefits, I may use in gratitude upon the way, that in Your joys I may delight by glorifying You in the kingdom of Heaven, You who live and reign, God, world without end. Amen.”
HH: Now I think that is about the perfect prayer.
LC: That’s right.
HH: Dr. Larry Arnn, he would recite that each day before the image of Christ. Why is that such a perfect prayer?
LA: Well, wouldn’t Thomas say that the reason was that he studied in order to learn the relationship of God and man? He, this is a prayer that’s born of deep understanding of that thing, a lifetime of study and writing. And so it’s a proof, is it not, that all of these millions of words that the man wrote were aiming where they said he was aiming, which was a knowledge of God and how to do God’s service.
HH: I think that’s exactly right. He wrote eight million words, and here are the words that he began every day with, which I think underlines them, don’t they, Professor Cole, as crucial to understanding him?
LC: Yeah, and it shows evidence of the point I made at the opening show, that is the unity of the more explicitly theological and then the kind of contemplative or the meditative, because you see in this prayer a profound understanding of the nature of the human being who is perfected by God. And that’s the exact understanding of the human being you find in the second part of the Summa Theologiae.
HH: He also has in the rest of his prayers amazing poetry. There with You resides the cheerfulness of spring, the brilliance of summer, the fruitfulness of autumn, and the gentle repose of winter, the refuge from all dangers, the multitude of dwelling places, the harmony of wills. I really, I don’t know, I’m more than edified that he is a poet. I didn’t know that.
LC: Yes, actually, the Dominican, French Dominican, Sertillanges, who died in the early 20th Century. He’s little known. He actually, he wrote over 800 things on Aquinas, astonishingly, so he’s following in the spirit of his master. Only a few of them have been translated into English. One of them is called The Intellectual Life, which is a wonderful text. Many of our students read it. But he has a text that was recently translated on Aquinas, now I’m going to forget the title, but the subtitle involves the word poet, and he has a number of chapters on Aquinas as poet.
— – – – –
HH: And where we have been in the Summa and the life and biography of Thomas Aquinas for the past four weeks, this week, we’re talking more about his spiritual life. And Professor Cole, this paper that you have written, So Much Straw: Thomas Aquinas and the End of Metaphysics, would you tell people how it came about?
LC: Well, it was actually occasioned by a request from the graduate school. So here at Hillsdale College a couple of years ago, we started a graduate program in statesmanship. But we also demand that our graduate students be liberally educated as well. So every year, they have to take a seminar, a liberal arts or humanities seminar, and that takes them through a particular period of Western history. So they started with the first year, they looked in antiquity. This year, they’re studying the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. And it’s very inter-disciplinary, and they draw upon professors who are not directly associated with the graduate school. And each semester, a professor, four different professor, present their work on a figure who’s relevant to that period of history. And they asked me whether I would be willing to present on Aquinas at the beginning of the semester. And I agreed, and then had to come up with a paper that I could give to a general audience of about 100 people, most of whom were actually undergraduates, not the graduate students themselves. So they were there.
HH: And Dr. Arnn, having helped design the Graduate School of Statesmanship, why that requirement of humanities mixed in here?
LA: Well, we, the whole graduate school program is aimed to read the things the founders said ought to be read by a person who is to be a statesman in America. And those are things that require that you understand the term the laws of nature and of nature’s God. So what do you have to know? You have to know what law is and what nature is and what God is. And to do that, you have to read the great books. And so the political philosophy of the Statesmanship program here is heavily invested in that in the regular curriculum. Plus, in the college, we’re so blessed, there are people all over the place at the college who knows things that bear deeply upon that, Lee being one. And so they should hear from them, and that gives us an occasion which we prize here for the whole college to get together and learn something that’s the same thing.
HH: Now when the framers, you’re the expert on the framers, The Founders’ Key being your most recent book, were any of them conversant with Aquinas? It doesn’t ring any bells for me.
LA: Well, they don’t write about him, but it’s likely that they were, and the reason is they’re interested in the classics. And people who are interested in the classics run across him. I don’t think, I’ll be Lee knows more about this than I do. That was not a time of a great revival of Aquinas.
LC: No, not it’s not, and of course, we all know this, that the founders were generally not Catholic, to put it mildly. However, I don’t think there’s such a direct influence. And in fact, there’s not even much direct citation of Aristotle amongst the founders. At least they’re not naming him very explicitly. But I do think you can trace an interesting indirect influence, because the founders, of course, are part of a project of modern liberalism, and they’re indebted to Locke and others. And Locke’s work is a reaction to, for example, Filmer, who’s kind of an English political theorist who’s defending the divine right of kings. And he’s defending the divine right of kings. He’s not a Catholic. He’s defending it over and against Jesuit and Dominican thinkers who want a more, what, democratic understanding of the political order. And these thinkers are really benefiting from a few centuries of developing Aquinas’ political account. So there’s a way in which through this conversation of about 500 years of history, the founders find themselves in the midst of a tradition that’s been shaped in a pretty strong way by Aquinas, even if they’re not always aware of that.
HH: And I was also surprised to find in the course of the paper you gave to the graduate school a sidebar argument with Francis Schaeffer, Karl Barth, and to a lesser extent, Hans Urs Von Balthasar, the big gun of the 20th Century Catholic theologians, as though that’s relevant to the, I mean, I’m just very surprised to find that sidebar argument going on in the Hillsdale Graduate School of Statesmanship.
LC: Right. Well, it was a tricky, I was actually asked to do a seminar with them on Aquinas’ Metaphysics. And I also had to give this lecture in association with that on the Summa then, and I realized I don’t think I can speak to an audience of 105 on Aquinas’ Metaphysics, so I’m going to step back here and say what do I, when I meet Hillsdale freshmen and sophomores, and they’re all coming with some conception of what Aquinas means, where do I think their prejudices lie? And how do I address those prejudices by way of a kind of corrective? And my default assumption here is that they think Aquinas is this rationalist theologian who thinks that he can kind of scale the heights and come to know God in a kind of exhaustive way through all of his writing. And that couldn’t, and it really couldn’t be more false. It couldn’t be a more false understanding of Aquinas’ vocation. And of course, there’s also a sort of, there’s a list of suspects here that form our students’ minds, for good or for ill, to make them think about Aquinas that way. And that has something to do with the fact as to why I was alluding to certain figures, although I don’t want to be disrespectful to those figures.
HH: And you weren’t disrespectful. But I did note, and I was surprised a few weeks back, Dr. Arnn, a bit of a bristling, I will say, about Francis Schaeffer. And it surprised me, and I let it pass, because it was a detour and a frolic. But why is that?
LC: Well, I feel, I’m very nervous to chart, to enter into these waters, because Schaeffer has such an influence on our Christian culture in America and how we understand Christian history. But I’m trying to be charitable here. He really grossly misunderstands Aquinas, but he makes Aquinas a big part of his story of Western civilization. So we get a very distorted understanding of Aquinas. And he says some things about Aquinas, for example, in his text, Escape From Reason, that are actually the opposite of what Aquinas says. He says things like Aquinas denies that the intellect is fallen, and this leads towards the Renaissance and secular humanism. Aquinas most explicitly does not deny that, and all someone has to do is open up the Summa Theologiae to the question on the effects of the fall, and you would find that he denies that.
HH: Well you know, that’s important.
LC: That’s one…it’s very important, and my concern is if you’re, let’s say you don’t know anything about Aquinas, but you know he’s one of the greatest Christian theologians. Would your default assumption be that Aquinas would deny what is such a central Christian claim?
HH: Right, and as you say, that the intellect is touched by sin.
HH: And so I found it fascinating.
— – – – – –
HH: Dr. Arnn, in your years at Oxford at New College, would anything like the Aquinas fest of the Corpus Christi be celebrated, because in the Anglican tradition, though not that theologically disparate, there’s that break. Did they reject everything of the medieval time when they got around to founding New College?
LA: Well, I was at Worcester College, and Martin Gilbert was at Merton College. So I went to New College often for choral evensong.
HH: That’s where you sent me. I thought it was your college. Okay.
LA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that’s a fantastic thing. But no, you know, Oxford it not, in my day, and you know, which is a long time ago now in the late 70s, Oxford was not dominated by Christian practice. It wasn’t as evident as for example it is at Hillsdale College, and so hard to answer that question.
HH: Okay, now to the spiritual life, you say he’s mystical, Professor Cole. You also write that everyone who considered him as such got to that. A14th Century Dominican mystic and preacher, Johannes Tauler, concedes, “A man may die of a broken heart, because God works in him so vehemently that it is more than he can bear.” Are you suggesting that that’s what happened to Thomas at the end?
LC: I do think that it’s something like that. I mean, we could, the romantics in the audience might sort of like that imagery of God working so intensely in someone that it’s almost crushing. Some of us might find it to be violent in some ways. I don’t think it’s unfair to what happened to Aquinas. I mean, you mentioned before the break that he was a workaholic, and in some sense, I think that’s right. But we have to understand, of course, that he didn’t consider this to be a kind of utilitarian labor. It was a life of peace and contemplation, and it was incredibly, it was filled with affectivity. So when you reflect on, when you read about Aquinas’ prayer life, I mean, he would frequently pour out tears while praying, and pour out tears during the Mass, especially during the Eucharist. And he had this deep love, I mean, his theological project was aimed at really wanting to come to the vision of God, which he thought is where all human beings are tending. And he so desired to know God so that he could love Him more and more, and I think you know, if in fact he had this mystical occurrence on December 6th of 1273, so the year before he died, I think he was given some special vision of God. And to see the beloved in that way, in a relatively unveiled way, and then have to go back to the daily task of talking about Him through the feeble instrument of reason, Aquinas just couldn’t do it. He was, as I said in the paper, he was sort of heartbroken, which doesn’t mean he stopped doing theology altogether. But he really did set aside his major projects, first and foremost, the Summa Theologiae.
HH: Now what is fascinating, after that experience, he said to his aide de camp, his colleague, Reginald, “All that I have written seems to me as straw.” I’ve always understood that in one way, and I’ve used it in some of my books about vanity. You interpret it as a potentially completely different way having to do with the incarnation. And we’ve got a couple of minutes before the break, and eight minutes after. Explain to people what your thesis is.
LC: Sure, so in this, when I was thinking about this paper, I was lying in bed months beforehand, and I said well, I should start thinking about what I want to tell the students. And I thought you know, this, I was, I said I’ve got to confront this prejudice that Aquinas is a rationalist. And where does this sort of crystallize? It’s in his expression, compared to what I have seen, everything I’ve written seems but straw. It seems perhaps to be a renunciation of all of his life’s work. And thus, if you’re already suspicious of Aquinas, it simply offers you affirmation of what you already thought. And I said you know, that’s not sufficiently attentive to how or where Aquinas was of how transcendent God was and how meager our words are when we try to talk about God. And it also ignores the fact that Aquinas didn’t give up theology altogether after this vision. And it occurred to me where’s the place of straw, where’s straw most evident in the Christian imagination? It’s in the scene in the Nativity, right? So as a child, as a Catholic child, you know, I would offer up my sacrifices and put another straw under the statue of Jesus, or I’d put it in the manger in preparation for Jesus. And this kind of all congealed, and I said that’s the cookie. That’s how we need to best interpret this saying of Aquinas. And I’m not saying Aquinas when he said this was explicitly thinking of the manger scene, but yet I think this is the most fruitful and fitting way of explaining his work. At the end of the day, it was straw placed in the manger in preparation for the reception of the living God.
HH: And that is, how has that been received by other, we’ve got 20 seconds to the break, were people taken aback by that?
LC: No, it was, the talk was really well-received. I even had professors coming up afterwards saying I really needed to hear that, and that transcended all my denominational barriers and so on.
HH: I agree. I’ll be right back.
— – – –
HH: I want to thank him for five great weeks.
LC: Thank you, Hugh.
HH: And I want to close, though, by talking about this one part of your paper where you talk about who might experience God differently in the next life based on how they lived this life. And it’s very challenging. Do you want to expand on that?
LC: Sure. I think I know the part you’re alluding to, Hugh. So I was sketching out briefly in the second part of the paper a few reasons, sort of snapshots, as to why it’s just mistaken to think that Aquinas is this kind of cold, speculative rationalist. And one of the things I wanted to reflect on was his understanding of love. And of course, that would take hundreds and hundreds of pages. So I looked just specifically at his understanding of beatitudes, so man’s final end enjoying communion with God, direct vision of God of the divine essence. And Aquinas is very clear. We don’t know God behind a veil. We know the very divine essence itself, and we’d be unhappy otherwise. So he raises the question. He actually admits that various people will be able to sort of drink more deeply of the divine essence. So all of us will be filled up, but in a sense, we’re all, we all bring our vessels with us, and they’re of different sizes. So all of our desires will be satisfied, and that’s required if we’re going to be finally happy. But all of us will receive more, have a deeper understanding of God. So then, he asked the question, well, how do we determine who has a deeper communion with God, or knows God better, even though we’re all seeing the divine essence. Now what would our, where would our suspicions lie? Our suspicions would be well, of course, he’s going to privilege the theologians, right? They’ve spent their whole life, they know God best, they have the most expansive intellects and beatitudes in intellectual act.
HH: Oh, I might have said the poor, because the last shall be first.
LC: Well no, but see, you’re attentive to the Scriptures. And Aquinas is at least thinking somewhat along those lines, and he says actually, those who will experience God most deeply will be those who have the most charity, the most divine love, the love that brings us into communion with God. And why, because he says in a way, desire prepares us and makes us apt for what is desired. And of course, if beatitude is going to fill our desires, if we have an even deeper, more ardent desire for God, then God compensates by filling that desire. Now of course, it’s important to remember it’s not intellect, it’s not the natural capacities of intellect that allow us to drink more deeply of God. It’s our love, and it’s our infused love. It’s our unmerited love. So God gives us love of Himself as gift, and then welcomes us into communion in a corresponding way that corresponds to our charity.
HH: Now if someone accepts your argument, how would you expect that to dispose them to act differently?
LA: By the way, I don’t accept it all.
LC: I don’t know if Dr. Arnn wants to jump in here or not.
HH: Go ahead, Larry.
LA: Yeah, well, I want to make one point, because I think we mustn’t make a misunderstanding. The obvious thing, you know, the forest in Thomas Aquinas, is that he wrote these vast reasonings about God, larger than anyone, larger than his teacher, huge. And in the Summa Contra Gentiles, which is my favorite book by Aquinas, and the first one I was directed to when I was having trouble understanding things in Aristotle’s Ethics, and Harry Jaffa told me go read the Summa Contra Gentiles, and I did.
LC: Two thousand pages later…
LA: The first one is called God, and the first chapter is what is the office of the wise man, and the second chapter is what is my intention in the writing of this book. And in both cases, Thomas Aquinas wants, he beckons us to understand. And he says our reason is one of the ways we know things, and that, too, points to God. So what I think Lee is describing here is true and good, and that is that if you understand the ways of God as reason indicates, it gives you a firmer and a more definite and a clearer understanding of Him, and you can get closer to Him and offer Him better straw.
LC: That’s right. These two things work in concert, and I have to tell this to some students who are sort of disposed against studying philosophy. And I say look, you don’t have to be a philosophy major, but if you’re going to tell me you don’t understand why it’s even worth thinking about God, you just want to love Him, I said well, what do you mean when you use the word God? Who are you loving when you love God, right? Don’t you in some sense have an idea of the person you love? And so love and knowledge work hand in hand for Aquinas. So it’s not an either/or. It’s not that knowledge is not important, it’s all about love. If you are the person who has the gifts in order to know God deeply as Aquinas did, then that can’t but increase your love for God when you think about Him rightly.
HH: Well, the trap, not trap, but the conundrum I had set up was does Thomas lead you back to Francis, that if you are, if you truly get it, then you get where he ends up, you go live like Francis.
LC: You may. I mean, that could be something you take away from Aquinas. But Aquinas also reflected, his very first lecture was on the role of the teacher, and he reflected on an Old Testament image of God watering the mountains and the water coming down the mountains into the valley. And he said this is the task of the teacher. They contemplate God, and they pass it on. So they have the contemplative life, but it’s the life of the teacher is a mixed life. It’s also an act of love. So through an act of love, they take the fruits of their contemplation, and they pass it on to those in need. So Aquinas, again, to refer back to an earlier image, sort of let a million flowers bloom, Aquinas is not trying to provide a cookie cutter account of this is how we live our lives. Francis lived his life as he was called to live his life. Aquinas’ life was a life full of love, even though Aquinas was not out begging in the streets in the way that Francis was.
HH: Does that satisfy Dr. Arnn’s hmmm that I heard in the background?
LA: Not quite. Not quite. And I’ll tell you why. The Summa Contra Gentiles is a late work. And if we want to know what did Thomas Aquinas suggest is the right life, we would be wrong to not start with the evidence how in fact did he live his own life. And he didn’t live his life the same way Francis did.
HH: Okay, you have to wait three more minutes. I have to go one extra segment and blow off the regular end of the show, because I need you to expand on that.
— – – – –
HH: All of this and all previous Hillsdale Dialogues are available at www.hughforhillsdale.com. Dr. Larry Arnn, Professor Lee Cole are my guests, and here’s the conundrum. And you know, stump the professors moment, Dr. Arnn just said before the break that if you want to know how Aquinas thinks you ought to live your life, look at how Aquinas lived his life. And his later work would suggest A. But then if he lived his last year differently than he lived his previous 53 or however many there were, how much do those previous 53 count for, Dr. Arnn?
LA: Well, the latest I know, Lee knows more about this than I do, but the latest that I know is that the last serious work that Thomas Aquinas wrote is the Summa Contra Gentiles. And that’s not different. I mean, this, the hymns and the prayer that Lee is talking about may have come later than that, but the point would be unless he’s explicit in saying that I have wasted my time reasoning about God and using theology and philosophy to find out what we can about him, and he doesn’t say that.
HH: He does not, no.
LA: Right, then, and see, here’s why I think this is an important point. We live in an age when everything is reduced to sentiment and emotion. And in the end, what comes out of that is will is everything. In the end, whatever we want, you know, what does the family mean? It means whatever we want it to mean. How should we organize society? We should organize it however we want to organize it. What is God? God is whatever we want Him to be. And I love Thomas Aquinas, because he is a tremendous antidote to that way of thinking. And he’s like Aristotle. He starts with common sense, and he builds up a structure of reasoning that helps one see that some things are real, that nature is real, that you can perceive it, that the gifts you have for doing that are reliable. And he does that in the Christian era, right, and that’s what seems to me a tremendous service.
HH: And in the last minute, Professor Cole offers a different interpretation of what the straw might be so that the straw is not in fact that which is thrown away or discarded.
LA: Right, and go ahead, Lee.
LC: So to address your point, Hugh, so Aquinas stops writing the Summa Theologiae when he has this vision. But again, I think this is part of trying to fix upon a single ideal and apply it to the lives of others, or within the life of Aquinas. His reflection upon the worth of his work was the result of a kind of mystical vision. But the mystical vision was the result of a certain way of life. So I try to tell my students that there is no vision without the 22 years of theological contemplation that led up to that.
HH: And on that wonderful note, thanks to Professor Lee Cole and to Dr. Larry Arnn. We will be back next week. I know not where, somewhere further along the road in the West here on the Hillsdale Dialogue.
End of interview.