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Dr. Larry Arnn on the Nomination Of Judge Neil Gorsuch to the United States Supreme Court

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HH: It is the last radio hour of the week full of fury and thunder, and Dr. Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. And it is time for the Hillsdale Dialogue, all of which are collected at www.hughforhillsdale.com. The extraordinary thing about our archive of four-plus years of conversations that you can go back and actually see what we said about Mr. Trump, now President Trump from a year and a half ago, Dr. Arnn being one of the few people in America who called it from the beginning, something fundamental is afoot. And it’s all on tape. But before, and good morning, Dr. Arnn, good to have you.

LA: Good morning, Hugh, how are you doing?

HH: I’m good. I’ve got to ask you a question, though. Do you ever attend gatherings of other college presidents?

LA: Two, no, except for the Michigan Colleges Alliance and the athletic conference we’re in. That’s when I see other college presidents.

HH: I am worried about you, because after the New York Times article, I am afraid that the next time you attend said gatherings, they will fall on you like Cassius and Brutus on Caesar, or Achilles on Hector, or Theseus on the Minotaur. They will hate you so much for the February 1st article by Erik Eckholm titled “In Hillsdale College, A Shining City On Hill For Conservatives,” and I say this advisedly, perhaps the best article about conservatives ever to have appeared in the New York Times.

LA: Yeah, we like it. Of course, it’s not a happy day if you’re Hillsdale College when the New York Times calls and says they want to come profile you.

HH: Right.

LA: And the only answer possible is yes, and so we gave our yes. And then this man shows up, he was there for two and a half days. And you know, I talked to him for 45 minutes, but he, the first thing he said to me was this is a very high-minded place. And I said thank you very much, and then he asked lots of hard questions. And he wrote down what I said, and I had the sense of a professional, and I like his article. And he’s been at the New York Times for a long time, 30-some years, he told me. So it was shocking, but it, I reread it this morning, and I don’t like to do that, usually, but I did, I liked that article.

HH: I love the article, and I have tweeted it out. I encourage people to read it not only because it mentions me, I love that part…

LA: Yeah.

HH: …but because you tricked him, and you charmed him. But more importantly, I have observed you sit down cold and ask students in the cafeteria what is the good. That is actually what you do.

LA: Yeah, well, they, it’s my favorite sport…

HH: (laughing)

LA: And anybody who wants to visit Hillsdale College, and this is, you know, I actually mean what I’m about to say, if I’m in town and it’s known far in advance when I’m in town, I go eat lunch in the dining hall just about every day. And if you come to town, you can come with me.

HH: Yeah.

LA: And we sit down, and you can help me torture the young, which is my profession.

HH: And it is, they are called upon to give up their arguments on Hegel. I will never forget that conversation, but here’s my favorite paragraph. “Founded by free will Baptists, the college wears its religion lightly, without requiring a pledge of faith like some Evangelical institutions. The student body includes a significant minority of Roman Catholics.” I’m wondering if it’s actually a majority, but I don’t know. “Students studying the Reformation in their core curriculum joke about reenacting its debates over lunch. Classes are small and personal. ‘The entire freshmen class is reading the same stuff at the same time, and the class spills over into the lunchroom,’ said Paul Rahe, a history professor.” Now the only thing I don’t like about that is to call history, call Paul Rahe a history professor. It’s sort of like to call Walter Cronkite a news announcer.

LA: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Paul’s an ace, and you know, he’s publishing this really great series on Sparta. And he took this journalist out to dinner. And Paul is one of our best, and I don’t know how that came to be, but somebody made a good choice there. Yeah, he, you know, at Hillsdale, people are smart and very well-qualified, and they’ve given their lives to understanding the things they teach. And it’s easy to caricature that. But the truth of the matter is that is in fact what it’s like, according to the New York Times.

HH: It is. You are now going to have to send, I don’t know, actually, if you have a prospective student and parents, and they hear you and they hear me describe Hillsdale as the lantern of the north, and they are charmed. They are misled by your Southern charm into believing that you’re nice to people, but then they’re aware that you aren’t by the way you treat me. But whatever, they’re leaning. Then if you send them the New York Times article, isn’t that going to be counterproductive?

LA: (laughing) Well, I don’t, you know, it, in the end, reputation is a wavering up and down line around reality, right? So the truth is all kinds of bad stuff are written about Hillsdale College, and all kinds of great stuff are written about Hillsdale College. But somewhere in the middle of that is what it is, and if you come and see, you will see it is a great thing, and it’s fun. I was there yesterday. I’m at the Kirby Center today. And I really, you know, and I’m going to see some really great people doing great things for our country today, and last night. But I didn’t want to go. So you should all visit. You’re invited.

HH: You should all come, and don’t go in January, which is the only time I am ever invited. Dr. Arnn, let’s turn to reality versus perception with President Donald Trump. And I’m going to begin with the National Prayer Breakfast, then move to his remarks in the next segment about Judge Gorsuch, and then move to Judge Gorsuch’s remarks. But I want to start with the Prayer Breakfast, because it’s been much mocked, because he engaged in banter of the sort that you and I engage in, and friendly banter between friends with Mark Burnett, and that’s what the media picked up on. And even Lawrence O’Donnell last night went so far as to say it was inappropriate that he referred to being raised in a churched household, which is actually fairly common parlance, and that he used the word, what the hell, I’m going to reconfirm you in your job to the Senate Chaplain. I don’t think it’s his to reconfirm him in, by the way, as a matter of Constitutional law, but it was an amusing moment, but Lawrence was shocked, shocked, that he used the word hell. What is going on here with the media and Donald Trump? They’ve lost their mind.

LA: Yeah, well, he is something else. You know, you’ve got to, he is driving them crazy, and I’ve never seen anyone like him. And he is the same fellow all the time. That means his manner, he’s a very confident man. He’s very quick on his feet. He always acts the same, and yet if you read the substance of his remarks, which are on the White House website, you can read them, they’re wonderful, and they’re superbly appropriate to the occasion, and they cover all of the bases that those remarks are supposed to cover.

HH: Let me play one excerpt, Donald Trump at the National Prayer Breakfast, cut number three:

DT: It was the great Thomas Jefferson who said the God who gave us life gave us liberty. Jefferson asked can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God. Among those freedoms is the right to worship according to our own beliefs. That is why I will get rid of and totally destroy the Johnson Amendment and allow our representatives of faith to speak freely and without fear of retribution. I will do that. Remember.

HH: Dr. Arnn, many people may have heard the part about I will destroy the Johnson Amendment, but far more heard joking about Arnold and ratings, and nobody until this show heard the Jefferson quote. That’s what, the world we are living in.

LA: Yeah, and did you hear the timber of his voice when he, I’ve seen a tape of it, a videotape of it. He meant that. That was important to him, and he’s, you know, Trump is describing a world, you know, Trump’s been there, what, two weeks today? Trump is describing a world in which people get to live how they want to. You’re not supposed to hurt anybody else, supposed to love their country and support their country. And you know, what does George Washington write to the Hebrew congregation in Newport, Rhode Island that Hillsdale College puts on its Christmas card every year? We may congratulate ourselves upon a wider policy than religious toleration. We give to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance. The Jews may worship unto their own vine and fig tree, none to make them afraid, the country asking only that each demean himself as a good citizen and give his country his effectual support. I think in Donald Trump’s way of talking, that is what he is saying.

HH: But being missed, I want to play as well in his way of talking how he likes to brawl, cut number five:

DT: Well, I think there’s a certain dishonesty if they go against their vote from not very long ago, and he did get a unanimous endorsement, and he’s somebody that should get it. I mean, you can’t do better from an educational, from an experience, from many standpoints, a great judge. He’ll be a great justice. So no, I feel that it’s very dishonest if they go about doing that. And yes, if we end up with the same gridlock that they’ve had in Washington for the last longer than eight years, in all fairness to President Obama, a lot longer than eight years, but if we end up with that gridlock, I would say if you can, Mitch, go nuclear.

HH: And so, Larry Arnn, 30 seconds, that’s very direct, right?

LA: And nuclear (laughing). You know, every day, it’s nuclear.

HH: Every day is nuclear. That nuclear is very big.

— – – – – —

DT: No one has inspired me more in my travels than the families of the United States military, men and women who have put their lives on the line every day for their country and their countrymen. I just came back yesterday from Dover Air Force Base to join the family of Chief William Ryan Owens as America’s fallen hero was returned home, very, very sad, but very, very beautiful, very, very beautiful. His family was there, incredible family, loved him so much, so devastated. He was so devastated. But the ceremony was amazing. He died in defense of our nation. He gave his life in defense of our people. Our debt to him and our debt to his family is eternal and everlasting. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. We will never forget the men and women who wear the uniform, believe me.

HH: So Larry Arnn is my guest. It’s Hugh Hewitt, the Hillsdale Dialogue. That was President Trump at yesterday’s National Prayer Breakfast. I have not heard that played once on any network on any show, Larry Arnn.

LA: Yeah, isn’t that terrible? And it’s a disservice to that young man, too, and it is the first time that, the first casualty, the first military death under President Trump, and he noticed it and marked it out. And they should notice it and mark it out, because you know, the other thing is this guy’s a tremendous soldier, you know? He’s an incredible loss to the country, because he’s one of the best of the best. And he’s the first one to go.

HH: And so he goes to Dover, and he takes with him the Democratic Senator, Chris Coons of Delaware, where Chief Petty Officer Owen was from, and they meet the family. It’s the hardest part, and I know Lincoln suffered terribly, as did Churchill under this burden, but it goes with the office. And I think Trump can bear it.

LA: Yeah, the best stories that I know about George W. Bush, well, I know a lot of good stories about him, actually, but Karl Rove tells really great stories about him with the families, and how good he was with them and how touched he was. Well, this sounded like that to me, and I think that you know, Trump is a very, he’s a very belligerent man. He’s also a very sympathetic man. And there’s lots of testimony to that. And you can hear it in what he said just there.

HH: Now before we turn to the Supreme Court justice, I have to ask you about your fellow Michigander, Betsy DeVos, who has been the subject of calumny. I mean, it’s just a slanderous campaign about her, and that she does not know the particulars of the federal overtaking of education seems to me to be a qualification for the job. Actually, it really does, that you don’t know the details of how everything is being federalized speaks well of you, Larry Arnn. What do you think of that?

LA: Well, the great rhetorical triumph of Senator Al Franken in interrogating Betsy DeVos was to expose, he said, the fact that she wasn’t really great on the question of measuring growth versus measuring proficiency. And now what in the devil does that mean? I will confess I work in education, and know something about it.

HH: (laughing)

LA: I didn’t know what it meant. But I looked it up, and here’s what it means. It means that we are shifting, apparently, from measuring proficiency to measuring, because that’s too harsh or something, to measuring growth year to year. And so you know, if I had been there and known what it was, a great thing, I wish, I only would correct her about one thing. She should have said what is that? (laughing)

HH: (laughing) You know, by the way…

LA: She was too nice.

HH: That’s what Sarah Palin fell into when she didn’t say what are you talking about? There are 18 of them. And sometimes, you’ve just got to say what the hell are you talking about. But I think what she ought to have said, my job is to encourage the love of learning in every American, and then to shut down all this other stuff.

LA: Yeah, accountability is to parents and teachers, right? But you know, I did figure this genius thing out. If you have growth, you will get proficiency. If you have proficiency, you will have had growth. (laughing)

HH: Yeah, it is, it’s actually kind of amazing, but I don’t think she’s going to lose another Republican.

LA: No, she’s going to be confirmed.

HH: She’s going to be confirmed.

LA: She needs to be.

HH: Yeah, she does. Dr. Larry Arnn will be back. We’ll turn our attention to the Supreme Court, Donald Trump, Neil Gorsuch and what it all means.

— – – – – — –

HH: And they carry through an amazing night in the White House this week when Donald Trump stepped to the podium, Larry Arnn, and said this, cut number 15:

DT: When Justice Scalia passed away suddenly last February, I made a promise to the American people. If I were elected president, I would find the very best judge in the country for the Supreme Court. I promised to select someone who respects our laws and is representative of our Constitution, and who loves our Constitution, and someone who will interpret them as written. This may be the most transparent judicial selection process in history.

HH: Who loves our Constitution, Larry Arnn. That had to make your heart sing.

LA: Yeah, this, so I’ve been reading up on Gorsuch, and I have four superlatives. First of all, that Trump speech, wasn’t that lovely?

HH: Yes, it was.

LA: I mean, Trump, I was afraid he wouldn’t be, and he is unorthodox, but Trump is good at the ceremonial.

HH: In fact, let me play, before you tell me your four, let me play the rest of Trump’s announcement so people understand the truth of what you just said, and the ceremonial, it matters a lot. Cut 16 and 17 back to back, please.

DT: Today, I am keeping another promise to the American people by nominating Judge Neil Gorsuch of the United States Supreme Court to be of the United States Supreme Court, and I would like to ask Judge Gorsuch and his wonderful wife, Louise, to please step forward, please, Louise, Judge, here they come. Here they come. (applause) I have always felt that after the defense of our nation, the most important decision a president of the United State can make is the appointment of a Supreme Court justice. Depending on their age, a justice can be active for 50 years, and his or her decisions can last a century or more, and can often be permanent. I took the task of this nomination very seriously. I have selected an individual whose qualities define, really, and I mean closely define what we are looking for.

HH: Larry Arnn, he’s right, and he recites his credentials. But what do you make of them? What are the superlatives?

LA: Well, first of all, the most eloquent defense in the history of the Supreme Court of the right of a little boy to burp in school without being arrested by the police is written by Judge Gorsuch.

HH: (laughing) I didn’t know that.

LA: Oh, you’ve got to read the thing. They put this boy in New Mexico in handcuffs for disrupting school, and the little boy was like 12 years old. And Judge Gorsuch stood up for the little boy. That’s the first thing. The second thing, the first and the fourth are alike, but the middle two are also serious. So there’s this thing called Chevron deference, and you know more about this than I do, Hugh.

HH: It’s a horrible thing. It’s a horrible thing.

LA: It basically says, you know, because now, we make all our laws through these regulatory agencies that are, in my opinion, themselves unconstitutional. And then they have judges of their own working for them that hear the cases, and this case that involved the Chevron Corporation and gave rise to something called Chevron deference means that you have to sort of let the agency interpret the policy, the law, if the law is ambiguous, and do what it thinks is best, and the courts defer to that. And he takes that on harder than anybody I read, and I’ve read some of what he’s written about it. The next thing is religious freedom. He was on the appellate bench that heard the Hobby Lobby case, and his opinion in that about the right of religious freedom, and about the right of people who practice religion to say for themselves what their religion means, because of course, if you’re granted your religious freedom, but the state gets to say what your religion means, what’s left of it? He’s lovely about that. And then the fourth, and maybe the greatest of them all, in a case called United States V. Rentz, he’s trying to parse out the meaning of a statute. And in the middle of the statute, absolutely brilliantly, according to Reed Kellogg 1877 style, he diagrams an English sentence…

HH: Yes.

LA: …in the statute accurately and beautifully. This is the greatest living man.

HH: This is, let me play now, we’re going to pause it, so be aware of my hand signals. This is Judge Gorsuch accepting, there are a few things I want to underscore, and I want it recorded in the Hillsdale Dialogues Judge Gorsuch’s acceptance speech, cut number 21.

NG: Mr. President, thank you very much. Mr. President, Mr. Vice President, you and your team have shown me great courtesy in this process. And you’ve entrusted me with a most solemn assignment. Standing here in a house of history…

HH: In a house of history, Larry Arnn, it was a beautiful turn of phrase that portends beautiful turns of phrases.

LA: Yeah, there’s dignity in this guy.

HH: That’s it. There’s dignity in this guy.

LA: Yeah.

HH: Go ahead.

NG: …and acutely aware of my own imperfections…

HH: Stop. There’s also humility in this guy.

LA: Yeah, yeah.

HH: Very good. Go.

NG: …I pledge that if I am confirmed, I will do all my powers permit to be a faithful servant of the Constitution and laws of this great country. For the last decade, I’ve worked as a federal judge in a court that spans six Western states, serving about 20% of the continental United States, and about 18 million people. The men and women I’ve worked with at every level on our circuit are an inspiration to me. I’ve watched them fiercely tending to the rule of law, and forcing the promises of our Constitution, and living out daily their judicial oaths to administer justice equally to rich and poor alike.

HH: Stop. He is paying homage to his circuit, and to, by the way, it is one of the best circuits, and it is a federalism-oriented circuit, and it is the West, Larry Arnn, that he’s speaking for.

LA: He, this man is, I want everybody to read him. Look up just about anything he’s written. I’ve read four of his opinions now, and they are testimonies to the rule of law, and they’re witty and clear. It’s really amazing. And so yeah, what a thing. And you know, the law is going to have to mean again that there are things that the government cannot do.

HH: Cannot do, and that’s exactly right. And there are limits. And by the way, the Article II president is limiting his reach by appointing this man. He is self-limiting by appointing a strict constructionist, as we like to say, of Article I’s authority and Article III’s authority. It’s quite reassuring to those who fear that Trump is some sort of authoritarian.

LA: Yeah.

HH: Authoritarians don’t appoint people like this.

LA: Trump, you know, I thought Trump for more than a year, I thought Trump was going to win. And for more than a year, I thought he would win the general, and I thought that would be good. But I think it more today than I have since I first started thinking it.

HH: More Gorsuch.

NG: …following the law as they find it, and without respect to their personal political beliefs. I think of them tonight. Of course, the Supreme Court’s work is vital not just to a region of the country, but to the whole, vital to the protection of the people’s liberties under law, and to the continuity of our Constitution, the greatest charter of human liberty the world has ever known. The towering judges that have served in this particular seat of the Supreme Court, including Antonin Scalia and Robert Jackson, are much in my mind at this moment.

HH: Stop for a moment. Robert Jackson, Dr. Arnn, the prosecutor at Nuremberg who rebuked FDR over Korematsu, the imprisoning of Japanese-Americans without due process, and who told Truman he couldn’t take the steel companies. This is not a toady.

LA: Yeah, and that’s strong. You know, Hugh, I missed that. That’s very artful, and very artful of you to notice. And think how important that is, you know? And think what the symbol is. Trump introduces him by saying that outside war, this is the most lasting thing he will do. And then he listens with approval while the man says I will do what the law says, not what you say.

HH: Exactly.

LA: Isn’t that awesome?

HH: It is. Here’s more.

NG: Justice Scalia was a lion of the law. Agree or disagree with him, all of his colleagues on the bench cherished his wisdom and his humor. And like them, I miss him. I began my legal career working for Byron White, the last Coloradan to serve on the Supreme Court, and the only justice to lead the NFL in rushing.

HH: Stop. I note, Dr. Arnn, emotion, but under control, and humor, which is always necessary.

LA: Well, his, I’m telling you, his opinions become hilarious. Hilarious. I’m not exaggerating. If you are one those benighted people who was forced to diagram sentences in school, you will speak better than other people. And this guy did it, and he does it in his opinions, and it’s charming when he does it. So there’s, you know, this is funny and grave and serious and all of that.

HH: And when he said it, the salute to Justice Scalia with his widow in the audience, there was communicated without words, and without tears, incredible affection. That’s a hard thing to do, actually. It’s an art. A little more of Judge Gorsuch.

NG: He was one of the smartest and most courageous men I’ve ever known. When Justice White retired, he gave me the chance to work for Justice Kennedy as well. Justice Kennedy was incredibly welcoming and gracious. And like Justice White, he taught me so much. I am forever grateful. And if you’ve ever met Judge David Sentelle, you’ll know just how lucky I was to land a clerkship with him right out of school. Thank you. These judges brought me up on the law. Truly, I would not be here without them. Today is as much their day as it is mine. In the balance of my professional life, I’ve had the privilege of working as a practicing lawyer and teacher. I’ve enjoyed wonderful colleagues whose support means so much to me at this moment, as it has year in and year out. Practicing in the trial work trenches of the law, I saw, too, that when we judges don our robes, it doesn’t make us any smarter, but it does serve as a reminder of what’s expected of us – impartiality and independence, collegiality and courage.

HH: Larry Arnn, I want to stop right here. That’s the second time he has mentioned courage. Thucydides says the secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage. He’s mentioned it twice now, and this is really, along with the humility which comes through, quite bracing. 30 seconds, and then we go to break.

LA: Well, doesn’t he seem big enough for this job?

HH: Well put.

LA: And you know, he’s about to go before these people who are going to try to take him down, already announced that they’re going to do it. And I think he’s going to seem large, and I think it’s going to be a great occasion when they take after him.

HH: When we come back, we will play the balance of Judge Gorsuch’s remarks.

— – – — –

NG: As this process now moves to the Senate, I look forward with speaking with members from both sides of the aisle, to answering their questions and hearing their concerns. I consider the United States Senate the greatest deliberative body in the world, and I respect the important role the Constitution affords it in the confirmation of our judges. I respect, too, the fact that in our legal order, it is for Congress and not the courts to write new laws. It is the role of judges to apply, not alter, the work of the people’s representatives. A judge who likes every outcome he reaches is very likely a bad judge, stretching for results he prefers rather than those the law demands. I am so thankful tonight for my family, my friends, and my faith.

HH: All right, let’s leave it there, because Dr. Arnn, I want to comment a little bit on that. He respects the process. I don’t know that he will do other than rope a dope at the hearings. He will be told not to embarrass the senators, but it is a very dangerous man to attempt to embarrass here, I think.

LA: He is so well-spoken. I mean, doesn’t he sound careful?

HH: Yes.

LA: You know, the way he talks? It was very reserved. That’s what led me to say he’s big enough for this. But I’m just telling you, you should go read these opinions, because they’re very clear, and they’re, you know, they’re wicked. At one point, he’s parsing out, in the case where he diagrams a sentence, the question before the House is if you steal a car with a person in it, that’s robbery and kidnapping. And if you have a gun with you, is that two uses of a gun in a felony, or just one use of a gun? It’s just one gun, one event, right? And so he parses all that out to show that’s just one gun crime. But he starts out by saying nothing is more clear than to read this thing, but the details are full of devils.

HH: (laughing)

LA: (laughing) It’s…

HH: That’s, by the way, Robert Jackson saying the use of precedent or historical record is not, is about as useful as Joseph interpreting Pharaoh’s dreams. It’s difficult.

LA: (laughing) And so there are, there is Jackson in his opinions, and he’s been on the right side of every issue as far as I can tell. He’s got hundreds of opinions, so I’m sure I’ll find some I disagree with, but he was right on Hobby Lobby, and he was right on Little Sisters of the Poor. And by the way, Justice Scalia was wrong on the 1st Amendment Free Exercise Clause in Smith V. Employment Division.

LA: He was. And think of this, Hugh. This man clerked for Justice Kennedy. Maybe if they’re friends, it will give Kennedy confidence if he thinks he needs to retire.

HH: That’s what I thought, and the liberals are saying oh, no, he’ll be upset because he’s a Scalia acolyte. Actually, he’s got to be incredibly proud. It is the first time in the history of the United States Supreme Court that a clerk and the judge he clerked for are on the Court at the same time.

LA: Ooh, I didn’t know that. That’s really great.

HH: That is really great. And I do believe Justice Kennedy has a very distinguished jurisprudence in federalism.

LA: Yup.

HH: He believes in the states. That’s at risk if he is replaced by a Democrat, and I do not believe, or if the seat is left vacant by obstruction, I don’t believe he’s going to risk that, Larry Arnn.

LA: Yeah, I don’t, you know, everybody’s retirement is a trauma to him, and so Lord knows what he’s going to do, and I’m not trying to tell him what to do. The Constitution sets this up in a certain way, and he gets to decide.

HH: He gets to decide.

LA: As long as he’s competent, and he is competent. So I don’t know what’s going to happen. I just know that they do think, you know, when is the right time? You know, three of my young, I’ve got students now who are important people, and three of them are mentioned now being solicited to be on the federal bench. And one of them is very ambitious, and wants to be president of the United States, and he’s really smart. And so he says to me should I do it? And I said of course. You’ve got to talk to him, right? They called. And I said but if you do it, you can resign, but only when the party that appointed you is in power, because that’s a trust, right?

HH: Yup.

LA: The voters, and see, it’s not just a partisan thing at all. As Trump rightly said, the president is given the power to nominate and the Senate to confirm. And you owe to them to do the service. And if the forces are aligned in the same way in some future date, then you could give way and let somebody take your place, or if you had serious cause to give way. But if on the other hand you just change your ambition, I think you’re stuck with the job. I think you’ve got to keep doing it.

HH: And I also say you owe to them candor about what you believe not spoken. But I’ve always thought that Justice Souter had to resolve something in his mind I could not have resolved the same way, which is knowing you did not believe what George H.W. Bush wanted, to take the job anyway. That’s not what you should do.

LA: Yeah.

HH: Donald Trump has said this is what I want in a judge. I want Scalia. If you are not Scalia or Scalia-like, you ought not to take a job on the Court. Don’t you agree?

LA: Very much. And also, you know, this question about litmus test, which I’ve always thought is the dumbest expression. The point is if you interview anybody for a job, and you’re doing that, if you’re the president, you ask them do you support the Constitution. And then the next question is what does that mean?

HH: What does that mean, yeah. Dr. Larry Arnn, congratulations on your New York Times piece on a good week for the law, the rule of law, and what Justice Gorsuch said, liberty. Oh, he’s a liberty judge, such a relief. Larry Arnn, thank you, my friend.

End of interview.

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